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Random Political Thoughts

Started by MV/Liberace!, February 08, 2012, 10:50:42 AM

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 10, 2019, 12:41:06 PM
I believe that Western Civilization is far superior to it's counterparts on the planet.  I do not want to see my Country become some sort of a wretched hybrid (or more accurrately lowbrid) of a once proud and posperous nation and an aggregation of the shit hole theocracies from whence come Muslims, just as Germany, France and the U.K. have become. 

I've actually been to London  and other European capitals pre and post influx of Muslim immigrees.  There is no question that the atmosphere, culture and functionality of those cities have been badly degraded by the presence of what amounts to hardened enclaves of Muslim peoples who in no way share the political and societal values of their hosts and are taught by their  religious leaders to shun them.   My question to you is how can you fail to recognize this?  Unless of course you are yourself a Muslim. 

Islamazation of major cities has already begun in the U.S., most notably in the greater Detroit and Minneapolis areas.  Nothing good can come from adding to the problem we already have and we need to get smarter about controlling immigration into the U.S. than we have been.  Witnessing the state in which most of Europe finds itself with its growing and chronically restive Muslim population gives us plenty of incentive.


And as I've said often enough, London isn't really representative of the UK. It's of itself. It would be like someone from the UK living for nearly three years in the state capital of say California and declaring that represents America, crazy eh?

Kidnostad3

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 04:23:39 AM
People get tyranny when they don't understand their own interests and are more concerned with putting down other groups instead. Look at all the Trump voters who would gladly see him be a dictator if they thought it would help defeat their enemies. There are far more of us than of them, yet we end up getting the wrong end of the stick because we are more concerned with factional squabbles and don't manage to get organised. The most effective tyranny will always be the one that doesn't feel like a tyranny because you won't have to spend so much time dealing with dissent. That's why the obsession with the 2nd Amendment is so ridiculous; you won't resist tyranny by owning guns, that's just a security blanket for the ignorant. You will have more of a chance by staying informed and participating in the democratic process.e

That statement is as stunningly arrogant as it is ignorant.  It is the left in this country who promote identity politics and tribalism in order to exploit percieved injustices and instill a sense of victimhood in those groups whose vote they lie, cheat and steal to obtain.  It is an attempt to ignite the class war that Marx predicted but never materialized that would result in world wide communism.  Read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who makes a point of how communist dealt with people who "don't understand their own interests." many of whom were intellectuals.  You sound a lot like Abbie Hoffman and the  other 60's irrational idealiets.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 11, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
That statement is as stunningly ignorant as it is arrogant.  It is the left in this country who promote identity politics and tribalism in order to exploit percieved injustices and instill a sense of victimhood in these groups whose vote they are for of victimhood.

Well, within living memory people of darker skin weren't allowed to travel on the same buses, or attend the same colleges as white people. That's more than a perception.

Your obsession with immigration is an example of your misplaced sense of victimhood. Despite being an overwhelmingly Xtian country you like to claim you're banned from celebrating xmas, among other idiocies.

Kidnostad3

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 08:35:48 AM
Well, within living memory people of darker skin weren't allowed to travel on the same buses, or attend the same colleges as white people. That's more than a perception.

Your obsession with immigration is an example of your misplaced sense of victimhood. Despite being an overwhelmingly Xtian country you like to claim you're banned from celebrating xmas, among other idiocies.

I inadvertently launched my last post before I had finished it--call it a premature verbal ejaculation.  Please reread it.


SredniVashtar

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 11, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
That statement is as stunningly arrogant as it is ignorant.  It is the left in this country who promote identity politics and tribalism in order to exploit percieved injustices and instill a sense of victimhood in those groups whose vote they lie, cheat and steal to obtain.  It is an attempt to ignite the class war that Marx predicted but never materialized that would result in world wide communism.  Read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who makes a point of how communist dealt with people who "don't understand their own interests." many of whom were intellectuals.  You sound a lot like Abbie Hoffman and the  other 60's irrational idealiets.

There is a class war going on right now. The crash of 2008 was caused by the rank negligence of a small proportion of the population but the burden for bailing them out fell on the majority. And nobody went to jail either. It's no accident that the phrase The American Dream was invented during the great depression - they pretended that life would get better if you knuckled down and shut up. We got this same fantasy packaged later as trickle down economics.


Juan

The crash of 2008 was caused by the purposeful greed of a large number of people, Democrats and Republicans, socialists and capitalists, corporations and government. The causes are completely detailed in Reckless Endangerment by Gretchen Morgenson, a New York Times business correspondent.

You can now get a used copy for a quarter on Amazon. It would enlighten you as to how politics takes a backseat to graft. And by you, I mean everyone, not just Shreddy.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 11, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
That statement is as stunningly arrogant as it is ignorant.  It is the left in this country who promote identity politics and tribalism in order to exploit percieved injustices and instill a sense of victimhood in those groups whose vote they lie, cheat and steal to obtain.  It is an attempt to ignite the class war that Marx predicted but never materialized that would result in world wide communism.  Read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who makes a point of how communist dealt with people who "don't understand their own interests." many of whom were intellectuals.  You sound a lot like Abbie Hoffman and the  other 60's irrational idealiets.

That still leaves the so called 'elite'. The very same people who because of the Trump inspired tax code last year were made much richer. The top six wealthy in the US have a combined total wealth equal to that of the bottom 50% of the rest of the population, and it's getting more disparate by the day. The very same 'elite' that Trump crassly said to his devoted throng he was richer than; Though it has been revealed this week he really isn't. He lost a $1billion in ten years which accounted for about 1% of the entire US losses of that decade. If it wasn't for his daddy he'd be on the street.

Perceived injustices eh? Is the injustice of the very real possibility of someone losing their home because of over inflated medical bills just a perception? It is by far the biggest  reason for bankruptcies and homelessness in the US.

Is the injustice that a teacher in a public school is more likely than not to be personally funding the school so the kids have the means to be taught just a perception? Is the current POTUS declaring publically that the entire US (And most of NATO) intel services are wrong when they say that Russia didn't interfere in the last election because Putin 'said strongly' he didn't do it just perception?

Is the injustice that the male bigots in GA want to push through over abortion law just a perception?

Kidnostad3

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 09:25:28 AM
That still leaves the so called 'elite'. The very same people who because of the Trump inspired tax code last year were made much richer. The top six wealthy in the US have a combined total wealth equal to that of the bottom 50% of the rest of the population, and it's getting more disparate by the day. The very same 'elite' that Trump crassly said to his devoted throng he was richer than; Though it has been revealed this week he really isn't. He lost a $1billion in ten years which accounted for about 1% of the entire US losses of that decade. If it wasn't for his daddy he'd be on the street.

Perceived injustices eh? Is the injustice of the very real possibility of someone losing their home because of over inflated medical bills just a perception? It is by far the biggest  reason for bankruptcies and homelessness in the US.

Is the injustice that a teacher in a public school is more likely than not to be personally funding the school so the kids have the means to be taught just a perception? Is the current POTUS declaring publically that the entire US (And most of NATO) intel services are wrong when they say that Russia didn't interfere in the last election because Putin 'said strongly' he didn't do it just perception?

Is the injustice that the male bigots in GA want to push through over abortion law just a perception?

Of course you know that there are strong counterpoints to each of your points that have already been argued here.  I will respond to each of them in order but I'm entered in a hackey sack tournament this afternoon and I've got to start warming up. 


WOTR

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 09:25:28 AM
That still leaves the so called 'elite'. The very same people who because of the Trump inspired tax code last year were made much richer. The top six wealthy in the US have a combined total wealth equal to that of the bottom 50% of the rest of the population, and it's getting more disparate by the day.

I would not argue that there is a problem. However, the argument should not be "the rich are too rich", but rather, "the poor are too poor." In the end, if the poor have enough to be out of poverty, it does not matter if the rich have as much as 90% of the population.

Anyhow, you also can't blame just the American tax system. Most of those "richest" men sell the vast majority of their products outside of the US- most are manufacturing them in countries outside of the US. Most of their investments and income are derived from the global economy. Look to the tax codes of all the nations that allow them to prosper to this degree while subjecting their own populations to slave labour and offering "sweetheart" deals for taxes...

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 11, 2019, 09:47:59 AM
Of course you know that there are strong counterpoints to each of your points that have already been argued here.  I will respond to each of them in order but I'm entered in a hackey sack tournament this afternoon and I've got to start warming up.

Remember to wear a jockstrap, you don't want them kicking the wrong sack.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 09:48:56 AM
I would not argue that there is a problem. However, the argument should not be "the rich are too rich", but rather, "the poor are too poor." In the end, if the poor have enough to be out of poverty, it does not matter if the rich have as much as 90% of the population

It does matter if they use their disproportionate wealth to propagandise for the rich, which is what happens quite often. You are ending up with almost a separate society which doesn't understand how most people live. Remember
when the govt shut down and rich people thought that people who were not getting paid might actually need the money? Large parts of London are geting purchased by the rich as investments and left vacant. That's not healthy.

Kidnostad3

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 09:50:35 AM
Remember to wear a jockstrap, you don't want them kicking the wrong sack.

Okay, that's kind of a sensitive subject for me so I don't want to talk about it.   Suffice it to say that I was once a baritone. 

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 11, 2019, 09:47:59 AM
Of course you know that there are strong counterpoints to each of your points that have already been argued here.  I will respond to each of them in order but I'm entered in a hackey sack tournament this afternoon and I've got to start warming up.

Of course there are...

America loves the worst health service in the developed world on pretty much any metric, It's right and proper the insurance companies dictate medical need and put their own profit above patients. ..No injustice there


It's fair that teachers have to dip into their own pockets to provide resources for their classrooms...extra bonus fairness that they also field violence, possibility of a school massacre and the ongoing political football by people who wouldn't last a day in a classroom. No injustice

And the super dooper reality in GA where some twat wants to make abortions illegal after six weeks after conception...Not only a bigot but medically ignorant. Most women don't know they're pregnant until six weeks after conception and many long after that.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: WOTR on May 11, 2019, 09:48:56 AM
I would not argue that there is a problem. However, the argument should not be "the rich are too rich", but rather, "the poor are too poor." In the end, if the poor have enough to be out of poverty, it does not matter if the rich have as much as 90% of the population.

Anyhow, you also can't blame just the American tax system. Most of those "richest" men sell the vast majority of their products outside of the US- most are manufacturing them in countries outside of the US. Most of their investments and income are derived from the global economy. Look to the tax codes of all the nations that allow them to prosper to this degree while subjecting their own populations to slave labour and offering "sweetheart" deals for taxes...

I'm not against people being rich and exploiting the tax and other systems...Good luck to them. But who has lobbied that such things happen in the first place? It wasn't poor people. It's the dichotomy of America's psyche. Wealth is admired, no matter how it's attained, be it hard work, inspiration, invention, performance, cheating, it's all put in the same pot.

The poor aren't poor because they want to be, and seldom is it their own doing, it's frequently a symptom of happenstance and in the US (And increasingly most of the developed world too), many live literally week to week and have no savings to rescue them if for whatever reason they lose their job. Poor doesn't mean unemployed. There are many working two jobs just to survive rent day to rent day.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 08:58:26 AM
There is a class war going on right now. The crash of 2008 was caused by the rank negligence of a small proportion of the population but the burden for bailing them out fell on the majority. And nobody went to jail either. It's no accident that the phrase The American Dream was invented during the great depression - they pretended that life would get better if you knuckled down and shut up. We got this same fantasy packaged later as trickle down economics.
Horatio Alger stories, "Go West Young Man," manifest destiny, the various gold rushes, expanding/exploiting the Frontier, etc and the idea was long before the Great Depression. Turner wrote whole essays on the subject in the late 19th Century. Now it could be argued that this is good or bad, I guess. Personally I think motivation is a good thing and sometimes ethos or myths are a good thing for society and the individual but to claim it was all a result of some marketing in response to the Great Depression is absurd, if anything the Great Depression lead to a lot of literature and plays ABOUT the facade of the American Dream and the reality, or at least purported reality.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 08:35:48 AM
Well, within living memory people of darker skin weren't allowed to travel on the same buses, or attend the same colleges as white people. That's more than a perception.

Your obsession with immigration is an example of your misplaced sense of victimhood. Despite being an overwhelmingly Xtian country you like to claim you're banned from celebrating xmas, among other idiocies.

So "whites" are what? Around 11% of the world's population? Admittedly it is hard to get stats and there is much mixing or debate about proper definition of 'white,' But who is the real minority?

And in many of those countries a declining birthrate, sometimes even below replacement rate. Why are some countries allowed to have homogeneous populations or their own culture? Why is it only, basically, European or "white" countries that need to have open-borders, change their culture, rules, lifestyle, and customs to accommodate migrants, illegals, and 'refugees?' Why do countries in Africa, or in Asia, enforce immigration policies and even take a more militant stance when those people come there illegally?

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 03:45:26 PM
Horatio Alger stories, "Go West Young Man," manifest destiny, the various gold rushes, expanding/exploiting the Frontier, etc and the idea was long before the Great Depression. Turner wrote whole essays on the subject in the late 19th Century. Now it could be argued that this is good or bad, I guess. Personally I think motivation is a good thing and sometimes ethos or myths are a good thing for society and the individual but to claim it was all a result of some marketing in response to the Great Depression is absurd, if anything the Great Depression lead to a lot of literature and plays ABOUT the facade of the American Dream and the reality, or at least purported reality.


Indeed, and John Steinbeck's 'Grapes of Wrath' was deemed 'Communistic'. Presumably because he had the temerity to write about the reality of it all.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 03:45:26 PM
Horatio Alger stories, "Go West Young Man," manifest destiny, the various gold rushes, expanding/exploiting the Frontier, etc and the idea was long before the Great Depression. Turner wrote whole essays on the subject in the late 19th Century. Now it could be argued that this is good or bad, I guess. Personally I think motivation is a good thing and sometimes ethos or myths are a good thing for society and the individual but to claim it was all a result of some marketing in response to the Great Depression is absurd, if anything the Great Depression lead to a lot of literature and plays ABOUT the facade of the American Dream and the reality, or at least purported reality.

Don't forget you had people like Hoover who had to justify doing nothing to stimulate the economy. The American Dream arose from that. You might be living in a tent and half starved but keep believing and things will be OK. Allegedly.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 04:25:03 PM
Don't forget you had people like Hoover who had to justify doing nothing to stimulate the economy. The American Dream arose from that. You might be living in a tent and half starved but keep believing and things will be OK. Allegedly.
Likely better than living in a tent, or anywhere, without any hope for the future, belief in yourself, or thoughts about one's ability to change your situation, even if for a bit.  And the belief that government is your savior and only source of hope or change.
ps: I was re-reading some H.L. Mencken essays about the Political Conventions at that time. Hilarious and great stuff. Though cynicism is easy, he was hilarious and some of his observations and descriptions are still true today.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 03:49:41 PM


So "whites" are what? Around 11% of the world's population? Admittedly it is hard to get stats and there is much mixing or debate about proper definition of 'white,' But who is the real minority?

And in many of those countries a declining birthrate, sometimes even below replacement rate. Why are some countries allowed to have homogeneous populations or their own culture? Why is it only, basically, European or "white" countries that need to have open-borders, change their culture, rules, lifestyle, and customs to accommodate migrants, illegals, and 'refugees?' Why do countries in Africa, or in Asia, enforce immigration policies and even take a more militant stance when those people come there illegally?


Well, actually no. I can only speak for the UK of course but living there if you're none EU (and who knows what will happen there) for any longer than your visitor or student visa (Unless accepted as a refugee escaping persecution) is nigh on impossible unless you're very well heeled and have the means to show that state of play for at least two (Could be three) years when you might be allowed a National Insurance number (Social Security number) and allowed to work, then and only then will you be eligible for the same facilities (NHS etc) that the locals have. Moving to and applying for residency to the UK is very very expensive and unless you have a link (Family, spouse, employment that cannot do without you-very hard that one) it takes time and nowhere near a simple box tick.

Now moving to Africa; That helps if you're a national of one of the traditional protectorates, France, Holland, UK, etc.. But the political climate in most of the 57 countries within isn't conducive to a happy life if you're local, let alone from another country.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 04:29:35 PM
Likely better than living in a tent, or anywhere, without any hope for the future, belief in yourself, or thoughts about one's ability to change your situation, even if for a bit.  And the belief that government is your savior and only source of hope or change.
ps: I was re-reading some H.L. Mencken essays about the Political Conventions at that time. Hilarious and great stuff. Though cynicism is easy, he was hilarious and some of his observations and descriptions are still true today.

I don't believe that there is any population of any country in the world that believes that. I've travelled to a few countries and if even the hint of the local country's government is mentioned it's an eye rolling thing.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 04:29:35 PM
Likely better than living in a tent, or anywhere, without any hope for the future, belief in yourself, or thoughts about one's ability to change your situation, even if for a bit.  And the belief that government is your savior and only source of hope or change.
ps: I was re-reading some H.L. Mencken essays about the Political Conventions at that time. Hilarious and great stuff. Though cynicism is easy, he was hilarious and some of his observations and descriptions are still true today.

I don't know where you get the idea that government is a saviour. It's there to advance the interests of its citizens, that's all. If somebody is drowning and they get thrown a lifeline, there's no need to berate them for being poor swimmers.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
I don't know where you get the idea that government is a saviour. It's there to advance the interests of its citizens, that's all. If somebody is drowning and they get thrown a lifeline, there's no need to berate them for being poor swimmers.
Very naive view but a good, aspirational one. I guess?

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 04:46:16 PM
Very naive view but a good, aspirational one. I guess?

Uh, you just claimed that being fed a fairy tale was better than getting actual help. And I'm naive?

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 04:37:46 PM
I don't believe that there is any population of any country in the world that believes that. I've travelled to a few countries and if even the hint of the local country's government is mentioned it's an eye rolling thing.
Yeah, well maybe some countries out of fear or blind loyalty? Or simply learned helplessness? What is sad is that the local politics is what should, ideally and in reality often, really effects your life more than, though this is changing somewhat, the national governments or these international governments organizations.  The local school's performance, property taxes, building a deck or pool on your place, buying something at the store, getting a speeding ticket, arresting a criminal, taking down a tree or planting a plant, the homeless or illegals on your street, selling a property, etc are often on the more local level, so more should get involved. At a minimum vote on the stuff that actually REALLY matters, like bond issues etc not buy into the deal of just President or some anti-gun, pro-abortion, weird gender/social-justice or whatever crap and other 'red meat' based issues. Pay attention to bond issues, taxes, regulatory issues, zoning issues, etc.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on May 11, 2019, 04:51:20 PM
Uh, you just claimed that being fed a fairy tale was better than getting actual help. And I'm naive?
Belief in yourself and your abilities. Not belief in the collective, as savior, in government. There is a difference, see?

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 04:46:16 PM
Very naive view but a good, aspirational one. I guess?

The alternative is anarchy. It's estimated the maximum time before a 'civilised' society in the west would break down because of major food shortage, power cuts and fuel shortage would be three days. So presumably the governments of said countries are in some way implementing various regs that ensure the relatively free movement of goods and services that satisfy the needs of the general population.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: albrecht on May 11, 2019, 04:53:15 PM
Belief in yourself and your abilities. Not belief in the collective, as savior, in government. There is a difference, see?

Interesting notion..I'll be a cardio vascular surgeon on Monday instead of a technician. I believe I can do that, what can go wrong?

albrecht

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 11, 2019, 04:59:05 PM
Interesting notion..I'll be a cardio vascular surgeon on Monday instead of a technician. I believe I can do that, what can go wrong?
Funny going out to the lake to see my cousin who is one, well cardio-thoracic . Obviously the government mandated he would become one and he never had any motivation or belief that he could become one. You don't think school, residency, boards, etc require motivation or belief in one's self? You are a strange bird.

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