The "Occupy" movement and Communism

[Zircon]

So you still think "Occupy" movements are grass roots?

Mike Golash, a former Amalgamated Transit Union local 689 president is now an “Occupy” movement organizer. His message is simple and requires no interpretation: To overthrow capitalism in the United States and replacing it with a communist government. He includes violence in his advocacy.

While the actions of this man are treasonous and he is publicly voicing them, we have returning American veterans immediately being sent to be evaluated for "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder". Yes, they get benefits if it is determined they have this condition but here is the kicker - they forfeit their Second Amendment rights to own a firearm (mentally unstable). The government is trying to get every returning veteran to be evaluated as having this condition. Note, Homeland Security has deemed returning American combat veterans as potential "terrorists" and placed on a list.

Also, on the domestic/civilian front, a man found himself in a bank when a robbery took place. The robbery took place in Illinois. He had a shotgun held to the back of his head. Once the situation was resolved he was sent in for an evaluation of his mental/emotional state. It was determined he had PTSD. He has permanently had his Second Amendment rights revoked - for life.

Third, a young 11 year old student up in Washington state made the mistake, it appears, of saying, "With Osama dead, now who are the terrorists going to shoot" (paraphrased). Two hours before his parents were able to see him at the school, the authorities had already been there, were still there and interrogated him.

Yet a person like Golash up above can advocate the overthrow of the United States without anyone appearing to raise an eyebrow. The "Occupy movement is bringing in a plan for violence to include locations with stashes of street type weapons (pipes for example) along with their Guy Fawkes image on the side of a building which is a means whereby groups designate to their groups that this is their spot.

These videos and written content are also very interesting ...

http://www.liveleak.com//view?i=44b_1345480062

And from Glenn Beck's "The Blaze" website - sorry folks but yes, its Beck - anyway, here it is ...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/digi...ns-of-slavery/

AND

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/real...rchy-in-tampa/

[PB the Deplorable]

So you still think "Occupy" movements are grass roots?

Hey, where'd you find this, on Fox?  You're not supposed to be getting your news anywhere except the main stream media.  The left wing organs will put the word out to their people about what this guy says, but it's not meant for the rest of us.

Jeez, next you'll be accused of questioning his patriotism.

But seriously, all anyone needs to know about Occupy is their complete silence last week when Obama and Holders Justice Dept announced they were not going to file charges against Goldman Sachs or any of their employees. 

[Zircon]

PaperBoy, my apologies for responding so late. Actually I found it on Drudge and then did a Google search to get the video. So "no" not Fox. I don't even recall seeing a link to it on their main page which is surprising to me. Probably there today - don't now- haven't visited yet.

MSM will water it down for consumption by the lazy. Questioning whose patriotism - the commie's? I guess the left regards communism as the new American mindset and spirit. If that be the case, then he is vying for the red's version of George Washington or perhaps John Adams?

Yes, Occupy went quiet when Obama's boys did that. That is so strange isn't it - or perhaps not. Occupy is a mindless street hoard designed to intimidate the businessman of main street and their clientele. They won't even prosecute rapists in their midst. Deficators, drug users, violent thugs.

Goldman Sachs along with all other federal reserve banksters are EVIL. Honestly, and though chaos would ensue, the best thing that could happen is to round them all up (world wide).

Notice what is happening to US Marine Brandon Raub. He isn't alone. This ties directly into the conflict of being in the military, exercising one's free speech and calling the federal reserve (not part of the government keep in mind). Enemy of the State - REEDUCATION.

[BobGrau]

Who, in this day and age, actually takes Communism seriously? No-one. Not even the Chinese. You are getting all worked up about nothing.

By the way, 'advocating the overthrow of america' would presumably be covered by the Freedom of Speech fantasy you people are (rightly) so proud of. Let this guy rant in public, you can sit back and lick your shiny bullet hoard.

Sorry, that last bit sounded a little harsh. But it's an amusing image so I'm leaving it in. 

[b_dubb]

Thomas Jefferson said (roughly) that there should be a revolution every twenty years.  we're way overdue.  Left. Right.  Center.  our government has been co-opted by big money from corporations and the very, very wealthy. 

Zirc ... you so clearly aren't interested in discussing anything.  you seem like you just want to beat people over their heads with your ideas

The "Occupy" movement and Communism

you don't even wait till you get to the post.  you start right out in the title.  fair and balanced my ass ... faux news

[The General]

Who, in this day and age, actually takes Communism seriously? No-one.

Millions of communists worldwide take it very seriously.
Many in our own midst believe communist ideas but don't use the word.
And they say things like this to discredit those of us who see very clearly what is going on.

[onan]

Here is some simple truth. It refutes OWS are homeless, uneducated, unemployed ne'er-do-wells.

Face it Wall Street fucked you. Me too(meaning I got fucked too, not that I fucked you as well). Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported that fucking. It surprises me that all you gubmint haters see OWS as the bad guys.

If one looks at demographic data, 70% of ows consider themselves independent. 64% under the age of 35, 33% over 35 and one in five of those were over 45.

Tax the rich!
15% earned between 50,000 and 75,000 dollars. 13% earned over 75,000 and 2% over 150,000 dollars according to The Wall Street Journal. Over 70% earned under 50,000 dollars.

Over 90% reported some college, college degree, or graduate degree.


Get a job!
More than 50% are full time employees, over 20% part time employed.

48% were for the first time active in a protest, rally, or march.

One of the tenets of OWS is not to become organized. Much to their own detriment.

[Zircon]

Onan, it appears that much to their "detriment" as you say, Mike Golash jumped at the opportunity.

Now I hear, and of course this is from Fox and some of the right leaning websites, that Occupy plans of trying to cause havoc in Tampa. As if the hurricane isn't going to be hard enough to deal with, the available security is going to be stretched thin since the GOP thing is not "Tampa" and isn't going to get top billing as far as the cops go. I can understand this since the taxpayers of Tampa and the city itself is Tampa's primary concern - naturally.

I assume you saw the information about potential weapons being placed at a location with a Guy Fawkes graffiti etched on the building wall? There have been statements made about causing trouble. The New Black Panthers are expected to be in Tampa. Recall how they behaved at the polling stations in Philadelphia in 2008 and probably 2010.

Occupy may have been initiated by people who actually had something constructive to say and legitimate concerns. And don't think that just because someone is employed or makes above a poverty wage they're not above getting into a group and causing trouble.

Educated? Yeah, look at what they are being taught. If you major is bullshit or horseshit and once you graduate and are told what a bunch of mother fuckers there are out there you'll be working for, is it no wonder these new "educated" folks can't get a six figure salary where things are actually produced then whose fault is that? How many are engineers, systems analysts, pharmacists/chemists (legally practicing theri trade), finance majors etc. Most majored in those social subjects where each earns a minor in "Victimology"by default.

Now we have a head honcho saying they want to bring down the United States and replace it with Communism. Do you think Janet and Holder would let a bunch of white conservatives get away with that? Fuck no - neither would. And the MSM would be carrying this on all channels and in every newspaper (still read). After Obama was asked what his favorite color was and which beer he likes he'd be asked to comment on these people - if it was white conservatives advocating bringing down the US government.

Occupy gets a pass because the media and government give them a pass. The government even said they're kinda working on behalf of the Obama administration. Hell, even some in the Occupy crowd have stated with with no interpretation needed.

Yes, Onan, we're all getting fucked. Corporations and bankers are fucking us. I'm sure MF Global and Goldman Sachs, two of Obama's buddies, who have been fucking people a long time are targets of the Occupy movement and the Obama administration. Yeah right ...

Some of my sentence structures aren't too good as I ran thoughts together. Hopefully you can get the gist of what I'm trying to say whether you agree with it or not?

[Zircon]

Thomas Jefferson said (roughly) that there should be a revolution every twenty years.  we're way overdue.  Left. Right.  Center.  our government has been co-opted by big money from corporations and the very, very wealthy. 

Zirc ... you so clearly aren't interested in discussing anything.  you seem like you just want to beat people over their heads with your ideas


you don't even wait till you get to the post.  you start right out in the title.  fair and balanced my ass ... faux news

There is some truth in what you say - as I am rather assertive in my views. So I give you that. As to not being interesting in carrying on a conversation ... well, I can do that as well. But since you comment on my "pushiness" I might add people might have a predetermined misconception about me when they see I've submitted a post. It works both ways.

[Ben Shockley]

ONAN, b-dubb --

A wise guy once said something like:
a sane person should never argue with a crazy person because most people won't be able to tell which is which.

Just walk out backwards slowly, guys.  They'll never know you're gone and will just keep flinging shit at the walls.

[Zircon]

Millions of communists worldwide take it very seriously.
Many in our own midst believe communist ideas but don't use the word.
And they say things like this to discredit those of us who see very clearly what is going on.

Totally agree with you General.

[Zircon]

ONAN, b-dubb --

A wise guy once said something like:
a sane person should never argue with a crazy person because most people won't be able to tell which is which.

Just walk out backwards slowly, guys.  They'll never know you're gone and will just keep flinging shit at the walls.

Ha! Ha! I'm imagining what you wrote. Not bad.

On the contrary, I look forward to Onan and Dubb submitting anything anywhere. Onan seems laid back and has a pretty damn good understanding of how things play out. Most of what he says ... well, I find it hard to disagree with. Dubb is a bit in-your-face like I am.

Ben, I don't have a problem with disagreement. Hell, I've gone back and forth with you. I believe you stated your views regarding communism. Perhaps you appreciate this person who has decided to direct the Occupy folks with his particular political philosophy?

Remember this Ben. You may be regarded as an intellectual and light year's ahead of people like me who are more conservative (I'm actually liberal on a few things) in your societal evolutionary insights. The people who help bring down the current system are appreciated by those who will assume control when and if it is accomplished. Your reward will be ... among the first to be lined up and shot as you will have served your purpose and clearly demonstrated that you could be trusted.

Now I am not singling you out for an insult. I am just identifying how things work.

[analog kid]

[Zircon]

Exactly. So, you're point is?

[BobGrau]

And they say things like this to discredit those of us who see very clearly what is going on.

Hope you don't think I was deliberately splashing propaganda all over the place, General - that's just genuinely how it seems to me.
I can't pretend to have an in-depth knowledge of these things, but I grew up and started paying attention to the world around me in the 80's. Communism for me is irreversibly associated with totalitarian dictatorship, and I really cannot convieve of any 'normal' person advocating such a hell on earth. As far as I can tell it can only work in isolated pockets, surrounded by a more free-market context. (In the same way that one can plant a rigidly structured garden but you still need the 'wild' weather systems around it in order for anything to grow).

I know plenty of people with socialist tendencies - I'm one of them - but I've never met anyone in my life, online or off, who thinks surrendering to a Soviet or Maoist style regime is in any way sane.

[Zircon]

Analog, Ben, Dubb ... the three individuals who I seem to be at odds with most frequently ...

I recognize that propaganda is a method that is one of the foundational aspects of politics. It becomes more viral when the parties involved are engaged in a close fight. It is used to make accusations and to get quick, emotional responses from the intended audience. Both sides practice it and one particular side - in my opinion the democrats - are engaging in outright lies and personal insults.

Romney isn't calling Obama a communist or a foreign national but the PACs for the democrats, who don't bother to vet their information, have called him a felon, potentially involved in murder, a cultist, a tax cheat etc. All highly personal. The Romney PACs are focusing on his broken promises, his competancy and ruinous domestic spending policies. A movie, "2016" wasn't paid for by the GOP or Romney's campaign. Obama will not release his college transcripts. Was he registered as a foreign student while attending college earlier in his life? Did he claim to be a Kenyan at one time - "yes, he did". These aren't empty charges aimed at him. He plainly made these comments and had that filing status (foreign student). Nothing contrived but simple fact.

Now I am not a died in the wool Romney supporter. I actually like Ron Paul which in your mind might be far worse. But he wants to get out of the Middle East and cut back on our spewing out so much foreign aid and waste in the federal bureaucracy. Fiscal conservative to be absolutely sure. More socially liberal than Romney.

You put up the "Propaganda" image. Are you suggesting I am into spewing out propaganda for the GOP side of the house by constantly pointing out Obama's miserable track record and clear sleaziness? Analog, please don't make the mistake in thinking that my supporting Romney is due to a mindless pro-Romney/GOP mindset. If I was actually guilty of that then I'd have no business criticizing anyone who was vehemently pro-Obama. I'd be just as guilty as them.

Romney advocates a return to building business, bringing jobs home (believe it or not) and strengthening our foundational principles at least fiscally. Yes, he is a businessman - and a highly successful one at that. The common feeling being perpetuated by the left and the media is that successful people have benefited by abusing, taking advantage of and basically fucking over everyone else. This extends even down to the small businessman. Why is this?

Ever since people had jobs, one or more person have come up with an idea, made financial and other personal sacrifices to bring a business into existence. They've hired people. Fortunately, at least in the past, the salaries paid enabled folks to buy homes, things, educate their kids, take vacations and have medical coverage. Pretty much all of our parents grew up with this model and we as kids benefited from stability.

Yes, greed got in the way and the government allowed lobbyists to send work overseas. First labor then white collar jobs like mine (high tech professionals, engineering and manufacturing aerospace, cellular communications etc.). H1-B visas went out and Indians and Chinese came in. Now our industrial secrets are in Beijing. Both republicans and democrats are guilty of allowing this to happen as profit margins increased.

Romney, in spite of what the democrats are saying, isn't trying to offload more American jobs. He is trying to bring them back. Democrats, the former knight in shining armor for the working man and woman, bought into the offloading of jobs as their people made tons of money as well. So democrats weren't supporters of American 40-hour/week types anymore. 

I believe Romney recognizes the absolute need to bring work back to this country and to encourage entrepreneurs to dream up the next generation of products using American ingenuity. The Tea Party is actually supportive of this as well. The democrats have bought into out and out socialism. The MSM has become their vocal advocate. While some republicans are in this camp, more of them are realizing what is happening as they've always been a more business-savvy group.

Obama is a Manchurian Candidate. I know you and many others disagree. He is actually clueless and a perfect example of a puppet who is told what to do and is told what to say. He has a great charismatic voice and is a great actor. But, other than his intensive socialist and communist upbringing and education and knowledgeable radical people (his grandparents, his mother and father - Davis?, Saul Alinsky, Bill Ayers, Cloward and Piven and numerous others) who have surrounded him his entire life and built him up to be where he is, he is just a virtual image who has been carefully manufactured for public consumption.

I don't think Romney is anything like him. While not perfect he certainly has the better ideas on how to get things pointed in the right direction. He'll not get it done in a single term. I think the situation is beyond fixing with the interest payments, expenditures and available tax income. Even if you took all wealth from that 1% - ALL OF IT - it wouldn't cover the cost of government for a single year. So taxes aren't the solution to fix anything - just the blood those who aren't well off but ant to see ALL OTHERS fall down. Not a good thing. Absolute destruction - while Beijing and Moscow celebrate. They have almost all the gold you know.

[The General]

Hope you don't think I was deliberately splashing propaganda all over the place, General - that's just genuinely how it seems to me.
I can't pretend to have an in-depth knowledge of these things, but I grew up and started paying attention to the world around me in the 80's. Communism for me is irreversibly associated with totalitarian dictatorship, and I really cannot convieve of any 'normal' person advocating such a hell on earth. As far as I can tell it can only work in isolated pockets, surrounded by a more free-market context. (In the same way that one can plant a rigidly structured garden but you still need the 'wild' weather systems around it in order for anything to grow).

I know plenty of people with socialist tendencies - I'm one of them - but I've never met anyone in my life, online or off, who thinks surrendering to a Soviet or Maoist style regime is in any way sane.

Nope, we just have a different opinion, that's all.  I work next to a Communist book store.  That's not my description of it, it's a real communist book store with lots of real communists going in and out all day.  Seattle is full of people like this.  America has been so good to them, and they would trade it all in for totalitarianism.  I think they are sick in the head.  This is the store I work next door to....

http://www.revolutionbookssea.org/

[Zircon]

General, so you're in Seattle as well - damn - that makes two of you. If we still lived there I could come see you but I'm down here (back here) in Edmond, Oklahoma.

Are you retired and if so where did you work?

Yes, the Seattle crowd is pretty stupid in a lot of ways. They embrace socialism as a badge of  "Intellectualism". They have for some time. Most people I lived and worked with wanted what was theirs and then some but advocated socialism for everyone else. Of course my family and I lived in Bellevue. They liked their capitalistic money but were "socially" conscious as long as they didn't have to immerse themselves in it personally. Typical of the "West Coast" mindset. BTW, it is also an "East Coast" mindset as well.

[BobGrau]

Nope, we just have a different opinion, that's all.  I work next to a Communist book store.  That's not my description of it, it's a real communist book store with lots of real communists going in and out all day.  Seattle is full of people like this.  America has been so good to them, and they would trade it all in for totalitarianism.  I think they are sick in the head.  This is the store I work next door to....

http://www.revolutionbookssea.org/

Aahh, you mean hipsters. Now I understand.

[PB the Deplorable]

Whatever people want to call it, there is an element that has constantly been pushing us toward a one world government with them at the top.  They could never sell it that way of course, it's incremental, each step is sold as something that has a nice ring to it - taxing the rich, free medical care, free trade and free trade agreements, commom currency (Euro), defence pacts among countries, international peacekeeping missions, the International Court, IMF, World Bank.  The UN is forever making plans to transfer wealth from more open and capitalist, er, rich, countries to less open and less free (poor) counties.  Some in the US want our courts to look to international laws when making rulings.  All these things and others are at various stages, some just trial ballons, some already quite advanced.

I'd personally put global warming in the category - as would many others that don't trust these large scale agreements that give more of our sovereign power to international entities.  I'd also add the intentional bankrupting of the country through generating enormous govt debt - at all levels, Fed, State and local.

It's all tied together at the top, the Rs and Ds here, most of the political parties elswhere, international corporations and banks, the Fed, the organizations listed above, certainly the UN and the EU, probably the Vatican.  Too many people are footsoldiers for this and don't even realize it.  Maybe even me, god forbid.  The only people I see standing against this in our country are the Tea Party - they know what's wrong and how to fix it but likely aren't even aware of the conspiricy involved.  Occupy?  Most are the same thugs and disaffected just out to cause troube, the rest are unwittingly helping Soros, Obama, and the internationalists (does anyone really believe Obama came out of nowhere to become Pres?)

[analog kid]

Words that end in ism are so scary. We need to focus on those concepts that affect none of us in our day-to-day lives, while our overlords get obscenely rich at our expense.

[Zircon]

Whatever people want to call it, there is an element that has constantly been pushing us toward a one world government with them at the top.  They could never sell it that way of course, it's incremental, each step is sold as something that has a nice ring to it - taxing the rich, free medical care, free trade and free trade agreements, commom currency (Euro), defence pacts among countries, international peacekeeping missions, the International Court, IMF, World Bank.  The UN is forever making plans to transfer wealth from more open and capitalist, er, rich, countries to less open and less free (poor) counties.  Some in the US want our courts to look to international laws when making rulings.  All these things and others are at various stages, some just trial ballons, some already quite advanced.

I'd personally put global warming in the category - as would many others that don't trust these large scale agreements that give more of our sovereign power to international entities.  I'd also add the intentional bankrupting of the country through generating enormous govt debt - at all levels, Fed, State and local.

It's all tied together at the top, the Rs and Ds here, most of the political parties elswhere, international corporations and banks, the Fed, the organizations listed above, certainly the UN and the EU, probably the Vatican.  Too many people are footsoldiers for this and don't even realize it.  Maybe even me, god forbid.  The only people I see standing against this in our country are the Tea Party - they know what's wrong and how to fix it but likely aren't even aware of the conspiricy involved.  Occupy?  Most are the same thugs and disaffected just out to cause troube, the rest are unwittingly helping Soros, Obama, and the internationalists (does anyone really believe Obama came out of nowhere to become Pres?)

An outstanding analysis PaperBoy. I wish I could have said it as well. I tip my hat to you good sir.

[The General]

General, so you're in Seattle as well - damn -

Are you retired and if so where did you work?

Far from retired, and I work deep in a bunker.

[The General]

Aahh, you mean hipsters. Now I understand.

Yes, they are hipsters AS WELL as communists.  I wouldn't mind flag waving hipsters.

[Ben Shockley]

I don't understand why anyone is scared of "communism" purely as a means of economic production and distribution.   The only reason I can imagine is that a person knows he makes no contribution to society; he knows that he does nothing that a community would find worthy of reward.   Conversely and consequently, he would also fear that the "rewards" he may have already amassed would be threatened if those were subject to community scrutiny and jurisdiction.
Short version: it seems to me that the only people with a legitimate fear of "communism" are those who are riding (and know they are riding) an illegitimate gravy train.

[Zircon]

I don't understand why anyone is scared of "communism" purely as a means of economic production and distribution.   The only reason I can imagine is that a person knows he makes no contribution to society; he knows that he does nothing that a community would find worthy of reward.   Conversely and consequently, he would also fear that the "rewards" he may have already amassed would be threatened if those were subject to community scrutiny and jurisdiction.
Short version: it seems to me that the only people with a legitimate fear of "communism" are those who are riding (and know they are riding) an illegitimate gravy train.

I continue to be amazed by your insistance on the virtues of communism. Do you feel you would have a more productive and fulfilling life under a totalitarianism dictatorship?

All systems have the upper echelon and the lower masses - even in communism. Are those who run things under communism not on a gravy train? To challenge a gravy train under totalitarianism usually means you are going to die. Lenin, Stalin, Nikita, Brezhnev (sp?). Castro, Mao, Vietnam, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Ill and others in NK and others come to mind.

"Legitimate fear" ... interesting choice of words. Are you referring to freedom loving Americans? I think you might be because those with no fear of communism are bottom feeders with nothing to contribute but an empty hand they think will be filled with the "plenty".

The booty is owned by the elite who run the state. The people are a convenient vehicle to place the few into power. They are killed off as they take notice and realize they just got screwed.

I choose to look at the way it is really implemented in the real world by human beings who are greedy regardless of political philosophy. Fuck political communist theory as it is shit best appreciated in a classroom by dope smokers who don't realize they're not going to change anything - especially human nature.

[The General]

I don't understand why anyone is scared of "communism" purely as a means of economic production and distribution.   The only reason I can imagine is that a person knows he makes no contribution to society; he knows that he does nothing that a community would find worthy of reward.   Conversely and consequently, he would also fear that the "rewards" he may have already amassed would be threatened if those were subject to community scrutiny and jurisdiction.
Short version: it seems to me that the only people with a legitimate fear of "communism" are those who are riding (and know they are riding) an illegitimate gravy train.

Because communism, and socialism for that matter, inevitably kills the will to excel.  "From each according to his ability, and to each according to their needs" sounds great in theory, but if working hard doesn't mean more money in my pocket, why work hard?  And at the end of the day, who decides what my abilities and what my needs are in a communist society?  Not the individual.  In order for communism and socialism to be employed, a crushing dictatorial government is needed to control the money, the resources, and the people.  I prefer liberty, so I choose capitalism.

[Zircon]

Because communism, and socialism for that matter, inevitably kills the will to excel.  "From each according to his ability, and to each according to their needs" sounds great in theory, but if working hard doesn't mean more money in my pocket, why work hard?  And at the end of the day, who decides what my abilities and what my needs are in a communist society?  Not the individual.  In order for communism and socialism to be employed, a crushing dictatorial government is needed to control the money, the resources, and the people.  I prefer liberty, so I choose capitalism.

Very well stated in my opinion. You seem hesitant to talk with me directly. Sorry if I offended you in the past.

Anyway, it should be obvious to anybody who checks out how the two actual societal philosophies are practiced. Clearly making your own choices is better than having the state tell you what you're going to do.

I think much of the criticism of capitalism and a free society is uttered by those who feel that success should be a guarantee and they have not achieved what they want. Most don't  - if being well off or rich and on top of the world is your ambition. I include myself in the "Most don't" group yet support those who can make it happen for them.

If "according to his abilities" was truly adhered to then the implication would be that if you can do it then, by all means, go for it. "According to their needs" removes/nullifies advancing oneself. Keyword is "needs". A roof, food and clothing are "needs" - all other things ... what about them? Remember, the people at that time may have had a roof with holes in it and some rags on their backs but LITTLE FOOD. Of course Stalin determined how much food you'd get - ask the Ukrainians. The USSR exported food and starved 8 million of them to death. Who got the benefits of that shipped out food? Certainly not "The People".

[b_dubb]

i think the point is that our Coke Vs. Pepsi "Democracy" is basically bullshit because there is no real difference between the two parties.  also ... the lesser of two evils is STILL evil

[Ben Shockley]

...I prefer liberty, so I choose capitalism.

This whole topic depresses me more than I can convey, and your ending there General disturbs me more than I can address in here.   Let me try to be quick:
How can you possibly (and so naturally and glibly) equate "liberty" with "capitalism?"  For one thing, they are utterly different concepts with different sets of assumptions underlying them (not to mention how hopelessly vague "liberty" is).   But beyond that, how can an economic system (capitalism) which decrees winners, losers, and "unqualified to compete" before the game even begins have anything to do with "liberty" for a society?    Capitalism only works for those with "capital."   Most people don't have any, so by definition --as well as through it's murderous operation-- capitalism does nothing good for most people, and in no way bestows "liberty" upon them nor enhances those things which they may find the liberty to do.   And from what I've seen, when those with the capital and for whom the system works speak of "liberty," they typically mean "freedom to do as I want regardless of the effect upon or the cost to anyone or anything else."

I stand by my not-so-rhetorical question (and answer) regarding the fear of "communism."  The natural operation of capitalism with it's exploitation of everybody and everything within reach chills me a hell of a lot more than the prospect that, within communism, I might not be able to amass obscene riches through unlimited exploitation.