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John F. Kennedy Assassination

Started by EvB, November 26, 2008, 08:45:20 PM

MV/Liberace!

Quote from: The General on February 10, 2011, 05:02:12 PM
To me, Oswald had the motive.  He was an avowed marxist Soviet sypmathizer who killed Kennedy for his anti-communist policies.
the problem with this contention is that it simply has too many holes for me to buy it.  it sounds like something somebody (conspirators?) would WANT me to believe about oswald. 


first off, if the document lena posted is genuine (and i have no immediate reason to doubt its authenticity), oswald had a documented, irrefutable history of cia affiliation.  as far as the government's intelligence infrastructure was concerned, oswald was a known quantity (and asset) well prior to november 22, 1963.  if he weren't, he'd never had made it to russia (and back).


second, when oswald was handing out communist literature in new orleans (the purpose of which seems suspicious AT BEST considering his past cia affiliations), his leaflets contained the address of a building entrance that led to the offices of guy banister, a career fbi man, private investigator, and unabashed anti-communist with documented, irrefutable mafia ties and a lengthy history within the intelligence community.  was oswald "sheep dipping" as a communist in new orleans under the guidance/sponsorship of banister and/or others?  he'd almost have to be, it seems to me.  due to his past cia affiliations and his physical proximity to the new orleans intelligence community (and guy banister himself) while handing out the leaflets, i'm nearly incapable of being convinced he was acting on his own or doing so as a result of any genuine convictions he held. 


furthermore, according to the warren report, oswald met with an anti-castro leader days before handing out the leaflets, and oswald offered to join his group.  when this anti castro leader saw oswald handing out the leaflets, he came unglued and went after oswald physically.  a scuffle ensued.  oswald obviously set the guy up, and the "fight" was engineered to draw further attention to oswald's activities and lend credibility to his actions.  numerous people on the scene suggested oswald's body language suggested he was neither surprised nor disappointed by the circumstances of the confrontation.  if i'm not mistaken, there is film footage out there somewhere of this very incident.


finally, i'd like to say god bless jim garrison.  a true american hero.  i don't give a shit what anyone has to say about that man.


i hope i articulated these points in a coherent, worthwhile manner.  i'm very fatigued.

MV/Liberace!

Quote from: RealCool Daddio on February 10, 2011, 11:31:34 PM
In fact, the Republicans are still trying to undo the things he brought into place almost fifty years ago - like public broadcasting.
and i say good riddance to NPR if the republicans ever succeed. 


i'm not interested in the preservation of any organization that would fire a man (juan williams) for saying he gets nervous when muslims wearing djellabas board the plane.  anyone who says he's crazy for thinking that way is a dishonest shit. 


people are always complaining about jesse jackson and al sharpton and the threat they pose to free speech in america, but the fact is, it's usually cowardly, guilty, white, corporate assholes who limit what you can say and about whom you can say it...  guilty white assholes like this one:

Nice pantsuit, dummy.


my saudi friends laugh at the silliness of white american thinking.  no sense of humor or sense of self preservation (at least, none that can be publicly expressed).


this morning i dropped aziz off at the airport.  just before he walked into the terminal, i placed my hand on his shoulder and said, "aziz, i'm afraid i'm going to have to ask that you not blow up the plane."  we had a good laugh, nobody was fired, and no investigation was initiated. 


fuck 2011 america.

MV/Liberace!

anyway, i don't mean to derail this thread.  back to the kennedy stuff.

Quote from: Michael V. on February 11, 2011, 12:45:16 AM
anyway, i don't mean to derail this thread.  back to the kennedy stuff.
No problem, I got a laugh out of the joke with Aziz - may borrow it myself!

As I said in my first post in this thread, there may be a lot more to this story than has been released.  But i still doubt that information is protecting a great assassination conspiracy, particularly one that involves such a diverse group as the CIA, FBI (who were, and still are, very, very seperate agencies, with very little love for one another), various state and local officials, the mafia, texas oil tycoons, and the highest levels of both the republican and democrat parties.  And not one of the 100's, probably 1000's of people involved have come forward with any credible evidence, have not had any twinges of guilt over being part of, well, treason, to have a death bed confession or something.  It just doesn't add up.  Plus, what the hell was the motive?

I think most successful cover-ups and conspiracies are very small (1 or 2 people, maybe a handful of people), and are for very personal, immediate gain.  Usually, covering their own assess.  So I think it is entirely possible, maybe even probable, that Oswald had some minimal engagement with Feds.  Maybe they though he could infiltrate some local commie groups, or radical groups in the local colleges and universities for them - it was the sixties, after all.  Maybe Joe Schmuck and Bob Doofus of the local field office even slip him fifty bucks once in awhile from the office petty cash, for tips on local militants, Castro supporters, whatever. 

Then, one day, the guy goes nuts, and offs the president.  Now the real cover up begins - Joe Schmuck runs into Bob Doofus' office, and says "Bob, you that goofball Oswald we sometimes pump for info on the hippies at the liberal arts college? He done went and shot the fricken' president. Higher ups are gonna be asking questions about what we know about this guy, and why we never filed any reports on him being a whackadoo.  Our careers are over.  And Mary Sue just bought one of them new colour TV's!"

And Bob says "Hold on a second Joe, here's what we are going to do.  First, find me every stitch of paper we have on this guy..."

The fact that Oswald had been trained by the CIA during his military service is not particularly surprising, either.  Heck, almost all military personal, as well as most police men and private secutiy people, deployed in Afghanistan get some degree of counter-intellignece training from a number of different groups.  I know for a fact that the CIA continues to provide training for (gasp!) foreign troops stationed in Afghanistan, including Canadian, Polish, and Dutch troops.

Lena

Quote from: RealCool Daddio on February 10, 2011, 11:31:34 PM
So, if you could, explain to me again how offing a moderate like JFK, and replacing him with 6 years of progressive LBJ, was part of some vast right wing conspiracy (eg: nixon and bush, the people who killed JFK, ruling america, as you put it).  Because it honestly doesn't add up to me.
I try to explain it.
The USA are controlled by powergroups. They stand behind (actually above) the democrats or republicans, they are like a brotherhood. The guys who come from Skull and Bones (Prescott, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., Kerry, etc.) are obviously among them.
They dont really care who of the Republicrats runs the senate or becomes President.
They really care more about protecting their spheres of influence: Military Industrial Complex & C.I.A., Media Empires, Banks, etc.

From these key positions they can either control a weak President like Obama, or put their own men in like the Bushes.
JFK was a problem, because they misjudged him as weak, having only women in his head,
but when JFK became real ambitious, attacking the Federal Reserve Scheme, working for peace with the Soviets and Cuba, kicking their men out of the CIA, and especially igniting some new spirit in the american public, they HAD to get rid of him - in order to protect their own benefice.

LBJ was ambitious, but he would have had no chance to become President, cause of JFKs second term, and possibly RFK afterwards - who was of course shot as well, as you know, and JFK jr. was killed too - on the memorial day (16. July 1999) when Apollo 11 was launched into space from the Kennedy Space Center. You think that is coincidence and back luck ?

let the father kill the father, let the son kill the son

By the way, some more funny coincidences - the russian Csar family was also killed on July 16th 1918, and Bush jr. went "missing" from his campaign trail from July 16th to July 18th 1999.

Kennedy’s plane went into the sea at 10:00 on Friday night, July 16, 1999. Bush was involved in a heated campaign, which he was losing in New Hampshire. He was constantly in public and constantly surrounded by reporters, so it’s easy to figure out where he was. Right? Wrong! According to the Omaha World Herald (7/17/99), on July 16th Bush was flipping pancakes Friday morning in Des Moines, but he boarded a bus and disappeared for the entire weekend. On Saturday, July 18th, reporters looking for a comment from Bush confronted a fumbling spokesperson who was unable to say when Bush would be available for comment. (Newsday, 7/19/99, A19) Bush finally called a press conference on Monday, to offer condolences.

By involving himself in Kennedy’s murder, George W. Bush was living out the legacy of his father and his father’s father, while at the same time eliminating a likely adversary for his future presidential campaign.



Lena

Another question you can ask yourselves - and keep in mind the other documents that place G.H.W.Bush at the place of the murder, and his "crazy" report of a guy suspected to want to murder JFK -
Why did the FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover write a Memo a few days after the hit, entitled: "The Assassination of JFK" and mention George Bush in it? It seems like a wink with the fence post.

Hoover had been, at JFK’s direction, spying on the CIA’s anti-Castro Cuban operation for months. His knowledge of the intimate details of the assassination can scarcely be overestimated. And 5 days after the assassination, he identified “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency” as that agency’s responsible party sent to receive the FBI’s report on the activities of their killing team. He then hid this memo, containing this explosive information, in plain sight, distributing to various members of the State department, without classification.

In college, Bush was a “brother under the skin” to the son of the head of hiring for CIA; he left college and went to work for a man his father identified as a CIA recruiter; and he then set up shop in the middle of CIA preparations for the invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs; which puts him squarely in the middle of the “misguided anti-Castro Cuban operations referred to by Hoover‘s memo.



to sum up some of the coincidences:

*Bush denies to have ever worked for the CIA before he became Director - which is of course so ridiculous, I wonder why nobody holds his feet to the fire for that. Why would he have to deny it in the first place?
*Bush reported a guy who allegedly wanted to kill JFK just days before the hit.
*Bush is mentioned in a memo by J.E.Hoover, FBI titled "The assassination of JFK"
*Bush was in Dallas or very close on the day of the hit.
*Bush does not remember where he was when JFK was killed - an event comparable to 9/11, where most everybody remembers when he learned of it.


MV/Liberace!

Quote from: RealCool Daddio on February 11, 2011, 10:35:32 AM
No problem, I got a laugh out of the joke with Aziz - may borrow it myself!
you may, but i ask that you kindly remit payment of appropriate royalties.

b_dubb

the politically correct, left wing, white america pretty much blows.  i live in an affluent college town and they're fucking idiots.  over privileged, over educated idiots.  bereft of common sense.  they don't have any backbone either. no wonder they can only thrive in slackademia

MV/Liberace!

Quote from: b_dubb on February 13, 2011, 11:31:44 AM
they don't have any backbone either. no wonder they can only thrive in slackademia
that's just it.  these people start out in college as students, and then find a way to STAY in college for the rest of their fucking lives until they're old enough to collect some sort of undeserved retirement.  they produce NOTHING to contribute to the GNP.  they strike me as empty vessels of condescension, consumption, and indifference.

onan

Quote from: Michael V. on February 13, 2011, 07:42:02 PM
  they strike me as empty vessels of condescension, consumption, and indifference.


That pretty much sums up 90% of america, dont ya think?



Quote from: Michael V. on February 13, 2011, 07:42:02 PM
that's just it.  these people start out in college as students, and then find a way to STAY in college for the rest of their fucking lives until they're old enough to collect some sort of undeserved retirement.  they produce NOTHING to contribute to the GNP.  they strike me as empty vessels of condescension, consumption, and indifference.

is i like  ,
exact what mean about cost over politic  too .

Were dangerous hev is system economist cost  ,
other people money pays from tax system .
People can vote have  not real power to vote out is system to closes dawn
Are dangerous system not have full control over economist cost  for is system




Uncle Duke

Got to listen to this show from a couple days ago just this afternoon, very disappointing.  Corsi is generally more disciplined that this, but he had so many "facts" either flat out out wrong or so twisted to support his theories it seriously weakend his overall treatise.  Some examples:

1) Corsi claimed Eisenhower supported the Bay of Pigs invasion to further US commercial interests and as an "October surprise" to get Nixon elected in 1960.  Now we know Ike was not a real Nixon supporter, in fact he never really liked or trusted Nixon.  But that aside, this is Dwight David Eisenhower we're talking about here, the poster boy for the NWO conspiracy types, the guy who warned us about the "military/industrial complex" in his farewell address.  And the same guy who threatened the Brits and French for resorting to military action to further commercial interests at Suez in 1956. 

Bottom line, if George bought this part of Corsi's story, I expect him to lambast the next guest/caller who cites Ike's farewell address as proof/warning about the NWO.

2) Corsi said the CIA knew the Bay of Pigs invasion was doomed to failure.  This is patently untrue.  The invasion was planned based on active US naval and air support.  Had Kennedy not decided to withold this support at the last minute it would have been a walk-over.  The rebel air force of obsolete A-26 Invaders, as well as their two primary supply ships carrying the bulk of their weapons and equipment, were destroyed by Castro's small, WWII era equipped air force.  A single squadron of modern US fighters would have given the rebels complete freedom of action without fear of air attack.  Naval gunfire and air support would have also destroyed Castro's armor.  Again, the invasion would have been a walk-over. 

3) Corsi claimed the US knew the "domino theory" was a flawed concept because Indonesia's communist government fell without taking over other nations.  In fact, Indonesia was not a communist nation.  There were communists in Sukarno's government, just as there were nationalists and Islamists, but Sukarno was not a communist.  Sukarno juggled the support of all political parties, as well as the military, in Indonesia to stay in power.  And while the CIA, but more likely MI6, might have had a hand in his overthrow by the military, his government fell primarily because his senior military leaders grew tired of their undeclared and ineffective war with the UK/Commonwealth in Malaysia. Corsi also conveniently overlooks the fact Sukarno's government fell in 1966, by which point the US was heavily involved in Vietnam.

4) To further support his "domino theory was flawed" argument, Corsi claims the various communist nations/movements in SEA hated the Chinese and wanted nothing to do with them.   While in principle this might have been true, it doesn't mean these governments/movements did not accept military aid from the PRC with the aim of establishing communist nation-states.  For example, the Chinese provided huge amounts of military aid to North Vietnam/Viet Cong, the Pathet Lao, and Khmer Rouge.  This "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality is nothing new, it's been in force throughout history.  Other examples include the rabidly anti-communist Churchill supplying weapons to the USSR in WWII and the US arming of the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

5)  On a number of occasions, Corsi brought up the fact the CIA was behind bringing in German rocket scientists and intelligence operatives into the US post-WWII, inferring it was some clandestine or illegal action.   Overlooking the fact the CIA wasn't even stood-up until almost 2.5 years after the VE Day, the fact these Germans were brought to the US to work for the US was hardly a secret.  There were news reel shown throughout the country showing these men coming to the US, and by the mid 50s men like Von Braun were household names.

Now if Corsi wants to argue the morality of bringing these men, many of whom were Nazis, to the US, that's another story.  There is no doubt the personal history of some of these men was even doctored to hide their Nazi connections.  Still, he neglects to point out if we hadn't taken them, the Soviets certainly would have.  Nobody ever claimed these guys were boy scouts, but you damn well want them on your side rather than working for the Soviets.

6)  I'll give Corsi something of a pass on my final point since he apparently didn't write about it in his book, but rather responded off the top of his head to a question from a caller about the death of JFK Jr, in a the crash of a small plane he was piloting in 1999.   Yes, Corsi allowed, he did find the death of Jr suspicious and possibly connected to the still on-going cover-up of the Kennedy assassination. 

As I've mentioned here in previous posts, I spent better than 30 years as an aircraft mishap investigator for the USAF.  Back in the day I read the NTSB report on the Kennedy crash, and it was one of the most telling civilian mishap reports I ever read.  To put it bluntly, Jr. was  foolish to have made that flight.  He was far too inexperienced to have undertaken the flight over open water in then existing weather conditions at night.  Even if we overlook other contributing factors in his personal/professional life at the time, there is no way he was qualified to make that flight.  I'm not saying he wasn't licenced to make the flight, but he wasn't qualified.

I grant I've not read Corsi's book, but his three hours on the air with Noory was chocked full of inaccuracies, flawed analysis, and unsupportable conclusions.  Based on what I heard, I'd not spend the money to buy his book.  Maybe I'll wait for the movie.

yumyumtree

Thanks for posting. I brought this up on another thread but I forget which one.
I certainly don't plan to buy or even read this book. But he will probably be making the rounds of whatever talk shows will have him, so we might as well be prepared.

I have pretty much come full circle on the Kennedy assassination, and actually believe the official explanation. Jack Ruby is a troubling detail, though.

Nearly all of the principles are now dead, or very old, so it's not as if a culprit would be brought to justice.

Quote from: Uncle Duke on September 19, 2013, 06:01:05 PM
Got to listen to this show from a couple days ago just this afternoon, very disappointing.  Corsi is generally more disciplined that this, but he had so many "facts" either flat out out wrong or so twisted to support his theories it seriously weakend his overall treatise.  Some examples...



Thanks for posting this.  Everything you said rings true

I would have listened to the show except Noory was the host.  Reading this, there are enough flaws that I've lost interest in Corsi's theory, so thanks for saving me the time.

Uncle Duke

One other puzzling Corsi comment came to mind.  Late in the show, he said the PRC was not a threat to the US because China has too much money invested in the US.  This should come as a surprise to not only our allies in the region, especially those (Japan, Philippines, South Korea) with whom the Chinese have had aggressive encounters over ownership claims of islands and territorial waters, but also to the current administration that has bulked up US forces and basing agreements in the region.  I remember President Obama saying the US making a strategic shift toward Asia/Pacific wasn't a choice, but a necessity.

Quote from: Uncle Duke on September 19, 2013, 10:42:39 PM
One other puzzling Corsi comment came to mind.  Late in the show, he said the PRC was not a threat to the US because China has too much money invested in the US.  This should come as a surprise to not only our allies in the region, especially those (Japan, Philippines, South Korea) with whom the Chinese have had aggressive encounters over ownership claims of islands and territorial waters, but also to the current administration that has bulked up US forces and basing agreements in the region.  I remember President Obama saying the US making a strategic shift toward Asia/Pacific wasn't a choice, but a necessity.


Power and control trump trade and money.  Especially if the US is broke and deeply in debt.

In our hemisphere China is strengthening already close China/Cuba relations, growing China/Venezuela and China/Mexico relations, and a Hong Kong billionaire with strong ties to the PRC government has exclusive rights to control both ends of the Panama Canal through his subsidiaries.

China is even building a new much larger canal across Nicaragua.

These are all well thought out strategic moves based on China's future military relationship with us.


Just as the US previously encircled the USSR, and have encircled China and now Iran, China is encircling us, which will blunt our ability in the western Pacific. 



Sardondi

Okay, everyone else has resisted, but I can't:
He shouted out,
"Who killed The Kennedys?!"
When after all,
it wasn't Jerome Corsi.

Oh, and the JFK Jr. death was "suspicious" only to pilots for "Storm Cell Airlines"*, since everyone else knew to get the fuck out of the air which JFK Jr. chose to fly through the middle of.


*For some reason there were difficulties finding pilots for this airline. Attempts to locate pilots for SCA were futile, although many grave sites for deceased pilots for this airline were found.

onan

Everyone knows Kennedy killed himself. Then set up the conspiracy theory to sell books.

Juan

One point about the Bay of Pigs.  I read several books a few years ago by people who participated in the invasion, and one by the on ground leader.  They say Castro was able to put in the air ONE - ONE Lockheed T-33 jet trainer - and that one jet defeated the invasion force.  It took out the CIA planes, then, without air cover, the supply ships had to leave the supply drop sites.  What a cluster fuck.

lonevoice

Quote from: Sardondi on September 20, 2013, 04:17:52 AM
He shouted out,
"Who killed The Kennedys?!"
When after all,
it wasn't Jerome Corsi.
It wasn't Jerome Corsi
When after all
It was you and me

Uncle Duke

Quote from: UFO Fill on September 20, 2013, 05:38:18 PM
One point about the Bay of Pigs.  I read several books a few years ago by people who participated in the invasion, and one by the on ground leader.  They say Castro was able to put in the air ONE - ONE Lockheed T-33 jet trainer - and that one jet defeated the invasion force.  It took out the CIA planes, then, without air cover, the supply ships had to leave the supply drop sites.  What a cluster fuck.

That's not quite right.  Castro's air force that attacked the rebels at the Bay of Pigs included not only T-33s, but British made Sea Furies and US made A-26 Invaders.  As I recall, it was Sea Furies that sunk the rebels' two supply ships, as well as shooting down some of the rebel flown, CIA provided A-26s.  The Ala ANG pilots killed flying rebel A-26s were shot down by T-33s.

There is a fantastic book written by one of the rebel pilots, Eduardo Ferrer, entitled OPERATION PUMA.  Hard to find in English, but you should be able to get a copy to read through inter-library loan if you are interested.

Juan

My source is "Decision for Disaster" by Grayston L. Lynch (available from Amazon).  Perhaps I wasn't clear.  While the Sea Furies participated, the one T-33 is what gave Castro air superiority, according to Lynch.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: UFO Fill on September 21, 2013, 07:20:41 AM
My source is "Decision for Disaster" by Grayston L. Lynch (available from Amazon).  Perhaps I wasn't clear.  While the Sea Furies participated, the one T-33 is what gave Castro air superiority, according to Lynch.

I've read Lynch's book, but it's been some time ago.  Lynch was the CIA operations officer who, if I recall correctly, was present (asea, not ashore) during the invasion.  Mr. Lynch's point may have been simply that a single T-33, with it's vastly superior performance to the rebels' A-26s, was the clearly the most capable a/c in the fight on other side.  If he's claiming there was only one T-33 that flew combat during the invasion, every source I've ever seen would dispute that. 

Somewhere I have seen a table of all the a/c used on both sides during the invasion, with a break-out of each a/c (and crew) lost and how it was destroyed.  I thought it was in Ferrer's book, but that isn't the case.  If I can find it, I'll post it.  In the meantime, he is a very well written article from the Latin America Aviation Historical Society that gives a good rundown on air ops from the Castro side during the invasion that was published relatively recently.

http://www.laahs.com/content/19-Bay-of-Pigs-The-Men-and-Aircraft-of-the-Cuban-Revolutionary-Air-Force/view/1

The most interesting incident relating to the Bay of Pigs air war is one that is little known, in fact it was denied by the US for several years after the invasion.  USN (VA-34) A-4 light attack aircraft (with all US markings crudely painted over) were launched from the USS Essex to over fly the invasion as a show of force, but they we not allowed to fire unless they themselves were attacked.  One of the pilots, a commander named Forgy, saved a rebel A-26 from being blown out of the sky by doing nothing more than flying along side the attacking Cuban Sea Fury.  I have actually talked to the late Forgy's ex-wife and the naval aviator who was his wingman during that flight.  Great story.

DanTSX

This was actually a good show.  I enjoyed it.


Yorkshire pud

Jeeze Stellar, I don't know why you waste your time on here; you should be a top investigate reporter.

Juan


onan

Connally is also the reason for all the disappearances in the national parks.

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