Removal of the Confederate Flag

[onan]

Okay... I admit it... I recently saw and enjoyed Tomorrowland.  There are problems on our planet... So what do we do to fix them?

Screw you softie.

[West of the Rockies]

Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife.  I'm sure you approve of the news source.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/us/a-confederate-generals-final-stand-divides-memphis.html

I have tried to read your link, but my stupid 2008 3G phone keeps shutting down when I go to the link.  Anyone else?  Does 21st C guy link to a solid source or a pants-wetting knucklehead?

[West of the Rockies]

Screw you softie.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man....

[NowhereInTime]

Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife.  I'm sure you approve of the news source.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/us/a-confederate-generals-final-stand-divides-memphis.html

To be fair, I inferred that the discussion was in regards to graveyards, not a tomb with a bronze statue in the middle of the city.  I still would argue against disinterring the Forrests, but the statue should be removed...

...unless the Sons of the Confederacy purchase the parksite (not the whole park, just the tombsite) and assume full possession of the tombsite.  The property would then be privately owned and there would be no further action, except that chosen by the SotC.

Also, not to be a dick, but this (from the article you cite):

"The resolution started legal procedures to move the remains back to the cemetery where they were originally buried. That case will be heard in the Chancery Court, which sits on Adams Avenue, directly across from where Forrest once sold slaves."

Actually, I think the Sons should buy the tomb and own it, thereby not further disturbing the rest of their hero.

[albrecht]

Okay... I admit it... I recently saw and enjoyed Tomorrowland.  There are problems on our planet... So what do we do to fix them?

We need to destroy the traditional family unit, burn all the books, raze the churches, synagogues, and mosques, kill the intellectuals (quick rule of thumb is anyone who wears glasses, though when in doubt kill them,) seize all farmland and private capital, completely take over the raising of children and education, eliminate any traditional institutions like marriage, contractual law, or concept of private property or personal freedom, all work must serve the state and people, kill everyone over a certain age or anyone who doesn't think correctly, encourage informers and give bonuses for anyone who informs on their neighbors, shut down all universities and high-schools, ban civilian ownership of any weapons as defense and power is solely the mandate of the state and the vanguard cadres supporting it. Then start over at year zero with a clean slate.

[NowhereInTime]

I have tried to read your link, but my stupid 2008 3G phone keeps shutting down when I go to the link.  Anyone else?  Does 21st C guy link to a solid source or a pants-wetting knucklehead?

No, it's a legit article.  21st Century Man omits a small part about how the Forrests were already disinterred and moved to this tombsite, but it is accurate.

[NowhereInTime]

We need to destroy the traditional family unit, burn all the books, raze the churches, synagogues, and mosques, kill the intellectuals (quick rule of thumb is anyone who wears glasses, though when in doubt kill them,) seize all farmland and private capital, completely take over the raising of children and education, eliminate any traditional institutions like marriage, contractual law, or concept of private property or personal freedom, all work must serve the state and people, kill everyone over a certain age or anyone who doesn't think correctly, encourage informers and give bonuses for anyone who informs on their neighbors, shut down all universities and high-schools, ban civilian ownership of any weapons as defense and power is solely the mandate of the state and the vanguard cadres supporting it. Then start over at year zero with a clean slate.

Sigh. Hyperbole, thy name is... oh fuck it. What's the use?

[albrecht]

No, it's a legit article.  21st Century Man omits a small part about how the Forrests were already disinterred and moved to this tombsite, but it is accurate.

One must note that society, in general, seems to have no problem disinterring bodies or moving graveyards, or worse, if we need to make a new golf course, highway, sports stadium, or new neighborhood. Or the bodies are very old (or worse Indian, slaves, criminals, or poor people.) I have more of a problem with destroying and removing art, symbols, statues, engravings, names, etc. This theory, supported by both American left (and leftists in general) and religious zealots everywhere (from the Reformation to today's Taliban and ISIS), of destroying (or removing) things to change history or too "not offend" (whether it is Allah or some leftist crybaby or some immigrant or some racial minority) is ridiculous. When I visited the Colosseum did I demand it "be destroyed" because Christians were devoured by wild animals in "games" then? No I said "wow." (And "no, guy dressed as gladiator I'm not giving you a handout.") If we accept the leftist (and oddly Taliban/ISIS) arguments we should destroy almost ALL of our art, statues, historical buildings, books, etc. Craziness.

[NowhereInTime]

One must note that society, in general, seems to have no problem disinterring bodies or moving graveyards, or worse, if we need to make a new golf course, highway, sports stadium, or new neighborhood. Or the bodies are very old (or worse Indian, slaves, criminals, or poor people.) I have more of a problem with destroying and removing art, symbols, statues, engravings, etc. This theory, supported by both American left (and leftists in general) and religious zealots everywhere (from the Reformation to today's Taliban and ISIS), of destroying (or removing) things to change history or too "not offend" (whether it is Allah or some leftist crybaby or some immigrant or some racial minority) is ridiculous. When I visited the Colosseum did I demand it "be destroyed" because Christians were devoured by wild animals in "games" then? No I said "wow." (And "no, guy dressed as gladiator I'm not giving you a handout.") If we accept the leftist (and oddly Taliban/ISIS) arguments we should destroy almost ALL of our art, statues, historical buildings, books, etc. Craziness.

No.

[Quick Karl]

We need to destroy the traditional family unit, burn all the books, raze the churches, synagogues, and mosques, kill the intellectuals (quick rule of thumb is anyone who wears glasses, though when in doubt kill them,) seize all farmland and private capital, completely take over the raising of children and education, eliminate any traditional institutions like marriage, contractual law, or concept of private property or personal freedom, all work must serve the state and people, kill everyone over a certain age or anyone who doesn't think correctly, encourage informers and give bonuses for anyone who informs on their neighbors, shut down all universities and high-schools, ban civilian ownership of any weapons as defense and power is solely the mandate of the state and the vanguard cadres supporting it. Then start over at year zero with a clean slate.

I've said it before, and I will say it again - America needs a Constitutionalist Cultural Revolution just like China's Cultural Revolution. Round up all the liberals and burn their eye-glasses and their Birkenstocks, and put them to work picking lettuce in Yuma, AZ for a few years until they are "re-educated," and if they resist - kill them.

Yes, I am serious. I would support this in a heart beat.

[NowhereInTime]

I've said it before, and I will say it again - America needs a Constitutionalist Cultural Revolution just like China's Cultural Revolution. Round up all the liberals and burn their eye-glasses and their Birkenstocks, and put them to work picking lettuce in Yuma, AZ for a few years until they are "re-educated," and if they resist - kill them.

Yes, I am serious. I would support this in a heart beat.

The worst sitcom writers in the history of television couldn't create a character as ridiculous as you.  Emulating Mao? Your level of Clown College craftsmanship is doctoral.

[Quick Karl]

The worst sitcom writers in the history of television couldn't create a character as ridiculous as you.  Emulating Mao? Your level of Clown College craftsmanship is doctoral.

The worst sitcom writers in the history of television DID create you. I am just using satire to show you for the buffoon you are. Eat that bait now, bottom fish.

[Quick Karl]

I encourage the male reader and regular participant whom I apprised of my intention with the Cultural Revolution post to come forth and reiterate the message I sent you, if you would not mind.

[albrecht]

I encourage the male reader and regular participant whom I apprised of my intention with the Cultural Revolution post to come forth and reiterate the message I sent you, if you would not mind.

I don't know if you send this to anyone else but I did receive this PM earlier:

"(No subject)
« Sent to: albrecht on: Today at 05:11:15 PM »


    Reply
    Quote
    Delete

My last post is just to flip the pansies out  "

I would've thought it would be patently obviously satire- but I don't know the people, or even you, in person, so don't know what they really think. I do know the leftists seem to share a common-agenda, to a point, with the Taliban/ISIS types (and those more revolutionary movements throughout history) in attempts of changing history and advancing their world-view, by destroying -or at least moving or banning- monuments, statues, flags, proscribing certain language or words, renaming buildings, redefining words, etc. It is a very "liberal" way of thinking indeed  .

Taken to the logical extremes, as you mention in the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but I think many would, more likely, enjoy something ala Robespierre and the Jacobins, or even Pol Pot. Got to start over and can only rebuild a utopia from a totally clean slate and start over with a new calendar and just "start over" for the people's paradise. ISIS seems to think this way and goodness if the Leftists here get their act together as they have done in other countries during certain times. It could be why they support Muslim immigration and Muslim rights into Europe, USA, etc and are very hesitant to criticize their actions- no matter how violent.

"If the basis of popular government in peacetime is virtue, the basis of popular government during a revolution is both virtue and terror; virtue, without which terror is baneful; terror, without which virtue is powerless. Terror is nothing more than speedy, severe and inflexible justice; it is thus an emanation of virtue; it is less a principle in itself, than a consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing needs of the patrie*.”

*The logic is there the only difference is the modern progressives, in their "liberalism" are not concerned with the country; indeed the country is the enemy. Arguably, the Jacobites were mainly concerned with their country, as bad as their reign was.

[Quick Karl]

I don't know if you send this to anyone else but I did receive this PM earlier:

"(No subject)
« Sent to: albrecht on: Today at 05:11:15 PM »


    Reply
    Quote
    Delete

My last post is just to flip the pansies out  "

I would've thought it would be patently obviously satire- but I don't know the people, or even you, in person, so don't know what they really think. I do know the leftists seem to share a common-agenda, to a point, with the Taliban/ISIS types (and those more revolutionary movements throughout history) in attempts of changing history and advancing their world-view, by destroying -or at least moving or banning- monuments, statues, flags, proscribing certain language or words, renaming buildings, redefining words, etc. It is a very "liberal" way of thinking indeed  .

Taken to the logical extremes, as you mention in the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but I think many would, more likely, enjoy something ala Robespierre and the Jacobins, or even Pol Pot. Got to start over and can only rebuild a utopia from a totally clean slate and start over with a new calendar and just "start over" for the people's paradise. ISIS seems to think this way and goodness if the Leftists here get their act together as they have done in other countries during certain times. It could be why they support Muslim immigration and Muslim rights into Europe, USA, etc and are very hesitant to criticize their actions- no matter how violent.

"If the basis of popular government in peacetime is virtue, the basis of popular government during a revolution is both virtue and terror; virtue, without which terror is baneful; terror, without which virtue is powerless. Terror is nothing more than speedy, severe and inflexible justice; it is thus an emanation of virtue; it is less a principle in itself, than a consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing needs of the patrie*.”

*The logic is there the only difference is the modern progressives, in their "liberalism" are not concerned with the country; indeed the country is the enemy. Arguably, the Jacobites were mainly concerned with their country, as bad as their reign was.

Thank you, sir.

[Jackstar]

Yes, I am serious. I would support this in a heart beat.

lol, I'd like to see you live off of three heads of lettuce covered in urine and taint smear, while trying to dispose of the corpses of 10,000 technofags--if you could even find that many to label.

[Quick Karl]

lol, I'd like to see you live off of three heads of lettuce covered in urine and taint smear, while trying to dispose of the corpses of 10,000 technofags--if you could even find that many to label.

That's sick, man!

Even under the "Year Zero" policy, the Khmer Rouge had clean rice to eat, and, 10,000 was nothing to them!

[akwilly]

Yes.  I am sure they would want an even more derogatory depiction of themselves used as a team name.  Every opportunity to slur somebody, you lead.

there is a totem pole here that is called the shame totem. It was erected to shame Seward becouse he didn't give the natives gifts or eat with them or some crap. There is also a hospital and dentist I can not go to becouse I'm not native. There is a gym I can't go to becouse I'm a guy not a girl. There is a club here called the Redman Hall. There is a village 5 miles from my house that I can't buy property in becouse I'm white. Where is the outcry about the totem pole? Shud it be cut down?

[RealCool Daddio]

Tough couple of weeks for the inbred crowd...

[albrecht]

there is a totem pole here that is called the shame totem. It was erected to shame Seward becouse he didn't give the natives gifts or eat with them or some crap. There is also a hospital and dentist I can not go to becouse I'm not native. There is a gym I can't go to becouse I'm a guy not a girl. There is a club here called the Redman Hall. There is a village 5 miles from my house that I can't buy property in becouse I'm white. Where is the outcry about the totem pole? Shud it be cut down?

If it is on a Res you might be out of luck. But if not you should sue. All you need to say is that you "identify" as an "other" gender, race, etc and you got a shot. Unlikely since you are white on the racial angle (though worked for Elizabeth Warren) but on the gender or BLT stuff you can ride that wave. And not only demand access to the gym but to use the locker-room of the girls- but you must say that you "identify" as one. If not demand them to make a "gender neutral" locker room. Equal access and so forth. (*hint- this works even better if you can get a doctor who is friendly with your lawyer, say you have some soft-tissue damage and get in a wheel-chair. Demand they build you a special ramp, shower, and access equipment for your gender-choice, disability, etc.)

[akwilly]

If it is on a Res you might be out of luck. But if not you should sue. All you need to say is that you "identify" as an "other" gender, race, etc and you got a shot. Unlikely since you are white on the racial angle (though worked for Elizabeth Warren) but on the gender or BLT stuff you can ride that wave. And not only demand access to the gym but to use the locker-room of the girls- but you must say that you "identify" as one. If not demand them to make a "gender neutral" locker room. Equal access and so forth. (*hint- this works even better if you can get a doctor who is friendly with your lawyer, say you have some soft-tissue damage and get in a wheel-chair. Demand they build you a special ramp, shower, and access equipment for your gender-choice, disability, etc.)

sadly the girls here don't use the gym either.

[albrecht]

sadly the girls here don't use the gym either.

Sorry for that  . But in winter in those igloos who wants a boney woman? At least for that extra heat and insulation and less bitchy. (Figured I'd piss off the gals some here too. Bella-haven etc I'm kidding, though your apportionment by gender etc of Congress is frigging ridiculous.) Just get some whale fat, some furs, some bootlegged, rotgut booze and hibernate/ party for the winter.

[21st Century Man]

To be fair, I inferred that the discussion was in regards to graveyards, not a tomb with a bronze statue in the middle of the city.  I still would argue against disinterring the Forrests, but the statue should be removed...

...unless the Sons of the Confederacy purchase the parksite (not the whole park, just the tombsite) and assume full possession of the tombsite.  The property would then be privately owned and there would be no further action, except that chosen by the SotC.

Also, not to be a dick, but this (from the article you cite):

"The resolution started legal procedures to move the remains back to the cemetery where they were originally buried. That case will be heard in the Chancery Court, which sits on Adams Avenue, directly across from where Forrest once sold slaves."

Actually, I think the Sons should buy the tomb and own it, thereby not further disturbing the rest of their hero.

I think we agree completely about the Forrests. Actually Nathan wanted to be buried at Elmwood Cemetery so we should respect his wishes and everyone could be happy.  As far as the statue goes, I think it should be moved somewhere else where vandals would be unlikely to mess with it. 

To be fair to Forrest, I think every one would do well to read his speech to black Southerners from 1875. He clearly wanted blacks and whites to live in harmony.  Here it is, courtesy of Wikipedia.

    "Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.


   I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt â€" that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man- to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.


    I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.


   Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.):

[paladin1991]

Humor!  Excellent!  Seriously, can't we all laugh at how stupid so much of this shit really is?  If we are invaded by flesh-eating, virgin-raping Martians tomorrow, aren't we all going to be on the same damn team? 

Damn straight.  I want me a virgin, too.

[paladin1991]

Okay... I admit it... I recently saw and enjoyed Tomorrowland.  There are problems on our planet... So what do we do to fix them?

Sell the french to the aliens.  Give them a recipe for french fries.

[NowhereInTime]

Damn straight.  I want me a virgin, too.

Quick Karl is available and eager...

[NowhereInTime]

I think we agree completely about the Forrests. Actually Nathan wanted to be buried at Elmwood Cemetery so we should respect his wishes and everyone could be happy.  As far as the statue goes, I think it should be moved somewhere else where vandals would be unlikely to mess with it. 

To be fair to Forrest, I think every one would do well to read his speech to black Southerners from 1875. He clearly wanted blacks and whites to live in harmony.  Here it is, courtesy of Wikipedia.

    "Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.


   I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt â€" that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man- to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.


    I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.


   Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.):

Thank you for sharing this important (and, you're right,  overlooked) piece of history. I would hope many would take it to heart to move past the hatred and separation of race.

[Quick Karl]

I would hope many would take it to heart to move past the hatred and separation of race.

That HAS TO BE that BIGGEST TURD OF SHIT you ever passed through you mouth?

[paladin1991]

Quick Karl is available and eager...

Yeah, but his avatar doesn't have that cool cynosure 'come make me do it' look in it's eyes like yours.  You know, that 'underneath this suit is a very soft body to be dominated and trained' look that is emphasized with that boyish coquettish tilt of the chin. 

Just sayin'

[Jackstar]

I would hope many would take it to heart to move past the hatred and separation of race.

I'm in favor of dismantling the global caste system before worrying about skin color. Do you get distracted from real issues much when you're reading books, too?