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War Birds

Started by Walks_At_Night, September 19, 2016, 06:59:24 PM


John Glenn in his Corsair and F-86



Taaroa

Went to the RAF museum yesterday and they had a decent collection of WW2 era warplanes. It's a shame none of them will ever fly again.




Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Taaroa on December 12, 2016, 10:27:29 AM
Went to the RAF museum yesterday and they had a decent collection of WW2 era warplanes. It's a shame none of them will ever fly again.





Lol..Yeah, if only we'd had Vulcans in WW2, it really would have been over by Christmas.

Taaroa

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 12, 2016, 10:29:43 AM
Lol..Yeah, if only we'd had Vulcans in WW2, it really would have been over by Christmas.

I hope you note the roundel is clearly not that of the RAF


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Taaroa on December 12, 2016, 10:31:48 AM
I hope you note the roundel is clearly not that of the RAF



Yep. NZ. But the Vulcan didn't fly until 1952.

Taaroa

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 12, 2016, 10:39:53 AM
Yep. NZ. But the Vulcan didn't fly until 1952.

At least it was available for Black Buck - the effectiveness of it might've been dubious, but it still was an impressive feat.



The museum had only a handful of post WW2 planes: Lightning, Vulcan, F4, Tornado, Meteor, Hunter.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Taaroa on December 12, 2016, 10:46:55 AM
At least it was available for Black Buck - the effectiveness of it might've been dubious, but it still was an impressive feat.


Yes, the book is a great read. The refueling relay was incredible, especially considering the runway at Ascension wasn't long enough or the dispersal area suffcient to house all the aircraft. Some humour in it too; the bit about a vital part of a refueling probe being used as an ashtray in the officers mess back in Waddington.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Taaroa on December 12, 2016, 10:46:55 AM
At least it was available for Black Buck - the effectiveness of it might've been dubious, but it still was an impressive feat.


The most significant contribution of the Black Buck raids was tying down Argentine Mirage IIIs for most of the conflict to protect the mainland.  The Mirage was the best air-to-air fighter in the Argentine service, and could have made things more challenging for the limited number of Sea Harrier and their exhausted pilots.

I think it will eventually come out the British got some help with their aerial refueling missions.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 12, 2016, 12:20:51 PM
   

The most significant contribution of the Black Buck raids was tying down Argentine Mirage IIIs for most of the conflict to protect the mainland.  The Mirage was the best air-to-air fighter in the Argentine service, and could have made things more challenging for the limited number of Sea Harrier and their exhausted pilots.

I think it will eventually come out the British got some help with their aerial refueling missions.

The thing was, Vulcan crews weren't routinely trained in air to air refuelling because they had no need to be. The flight to the USSR was one way. Consequently the crash course they had to do (with Victor pilots in the co-pilot seat) was sometimes spectacular; broken probes (oooerr) and near collisions.

The Russians had a play too. The Argentine navy chased shadows thinking they'd got a Brit submarine, when in fact it was frequently Soviet.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 12, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
The thing was, Vulcan crews weren't routinely trained in air to air refuelling because they had no need to be. The flight to the USSR was one way. Consequently the crash course they had to do (with Victor pilots in the co-pilot seat) was sometimes spectacular; broken probes (oooerr) and near collisions.

The Russians had a play too. The Argentine navy chased shadows thinking they'd got a Brit submarine, when in fact it was frequently Soviet.


Yep, and they broke a probe on one of the Vulcans during a BB mission and had to make an emergency landing in Brazil, creating an international incident. 

The Russians made an offer to the Argentines to sink Hermes with one of their subs.  Galtieri told Al Haig, Al Haig told Maggie Thatcher, and then......

Jackstar

And then Santa Claus flew over and cured polio with his residue-less jet engines.

... and, scene.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on December 12, 2016, 02:17:05 PM
And then Santa Claus flew over and cured polio with his residue-less jet engines.

... and, scene.

That's a wrap!

Taaroa

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 12, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
The thing was, Vulcan crews weren't routinely trained in air to air refuelling because they had no need to be. The flight to the USSR was one way. Consequently the crash course they had to do (with Victor pilots in the co-pilot seat) was sometimes spectacular; broken probes (oooerr) and near collisions.

Reminds me of this video https://webmshare.com/omQ5E

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 12, 2016, 12:20:51 PM
The Mirage was the best air-to-air fighter in the Argentine service

For what it's worth, apparently the Pucara is/was a fairly nifty ground attack aircraft, with a number of captured examples being evaluated.
 

The next American Army Fighter in line would be Larry Bell's much maligned P-39.  I will admit that I have a soft spot for this plane as it has such sweet lines and bad ass name.  In 1937 the US Army Air Corps issued a request for a Pursuit/Interceptor aircraft that would have a tricycle landing gear, use an Allison engine coupled with a GE Turbo Supercharger and the Oldsmobile 37mm Cannon. 

Bell Aircraft's answer to these requirements would be the mid engine mounted P-39 Airacobra.   The first P-39 would fly in early 1938 and the prototype was fairly impressive in its performance.  There was some concern over the ungainly external air scoop used to cool the Turbo supercharger. Some tweaks were suggested by the results of wind tunnel testing by the NACA and it was felt that the Turbo supercharger could be dropped as there was really no room internally in the aircraft to put the duct cooling system that would be required.  NACA came to the conclusion that a stunning top speed of 429 MPH could be reached with the suggested  aerodynamic fixes coupled with a newer Allison engine with just a single stage supercharger. 

I've read conflicting versions on whether it was the Army or Larry Bell himself who ordered the dropping of the Turbo in the final production version but the bottom line is that it was indeed dropped and the P-39 would suffer for it and its high level performance would never reach its potential.  Production would start and Great Britain would order a large number in 1940.  However they were very disappointed in its high level performance and would only keep about 80 out of the 675 they ordered and they would fly only a single combat mission with the RAF They were either regulated to training duties or transferred to the Far East and the Soviet Union.   Russia would also receive upgraded P-39s which to used to good effect against German bombers.   In the hands of an experienced Russian pilot it could hold its own against the Me-109 and some of the top scoring Russian
pilots would fly the P-39.

With the US entry into the war the P-39 would see action in the Pacific - especially during the nasty Port Moresby vs Lae encounters New Guinea during most of 1942.  The variant sent to the Pacific was designated the P-400 as that was its reported top speed.   The running joke among the pilots at Port Moresby was that the P-400 was a P-40 with a Zero on it's tail.   In fact only one American pilot would become an ace flying the P-39 -
that being Lieutenant Bill Fielder.   The P-39 would be used some at Guadalcanal and in the Aleutians but it would be with drawn from active American service.  The Australians would use them for a time but eventually they would be phased out as well. 

US P-39 Ace Lt. Bill Fielder


Soviet P-39 Ace Alexander Pokryshkin



The pretty, but flawed Bell P-39 Airacobra










Taaroa

A center mounted engine sounds very odd, are there any other planes like that or reasons why it isn't really used? Center of gravity issues maybe?

Quote from: Taaroa on December 13, 2016, 10:23:58 AM
A center mounted engine sounds very odd, are there any other planes like that or reasons why it isn't really used? Center of gravity issues maybe?

It is odd - on the P-39 it was done that way to accommodate the big Oldsmobile 37mm cannon. 


As for other birds the P-39 had a big brother - the P-63 King Cobra that used the same layout and the Germans had the Do335 Arrow that used a push, pull two engine design.  The pusher was placed aft of the cockpit:


If I were a mechanic working on the P-39 I don't think I would care for the design as the wing would get in the way.and as a pilot I don't think I would like all that weight directly behind me in a crash.  We'll probably need Duke to chime in some....................

Well lookie here.  The Italian Regia Aeronautica had a bird with a mid fuselage mounted radial engine.  It was the Piaggio P.119 but only one prototype was built before the roof fell in on Italy.




Uncle Duke

Quote from: Taaroa on December 13, 2016, 10:23:58 AM
A center mounted engine sounds very odd, are there any other planes like that or reasons why it isn't really used? Center of gravity issues maybe?

The Fisher P-75 also featured a mid-mounted engine, but only a dozen or so were produced and they were never operational. 

P-39s excelled with the Soviets because all Russian combat aviation was centered around tactical support of their ground forces.  This drew the Germans down to low/medium altitudes where the P-39s were very capable in the air-to-air role.


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Taaroa on December 13, 2016, 10:23:58 AM
A center mounted engine sounds very odd, are there any other planes like that or reasons why it isn't really used? Center of gravity issues maybe?
An Allison engine variation was used (basically two V12 nailed together with two crankshafts) to drive a gearbox for contra rotating propellers on this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_P-75_Eagle

This is the engine and shafts to the gearbox at the nose.

Edit: just spotted your post Duke.


Uncle Duke

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on December 13, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
An Allison engine variation was used (basically two V12 nailed together with two crankshafts) to drive a gearbox for contra rotating propellers on this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_P-75_Eagle

This is the engine and shafts to the gearbox at the nose.

Edit: just spotted your post Duke.

Even this photo does not do justice to just how ugly the P-75 was.  It was literally a "Frankenplane", made up of left over components from other planes.  So ugly is looks like it should have been a pre-WWII French design.

Dyna-X

The F-4 needs a little love on this thread. Sundowners :)


Uncle Duke

Quote from: Dyna-X on December 14, 2016, 12:22:28 AM
The F-4 needs a little love on this thread. Sundowners :)

The serious warbird guys are still living in the 40s, if it doesn't have a prop and pistons they are at best disinterested.  It wasn't all that long ago one of the UK magazines (either "FlyPast" or "Aeroplane") faced a near revolt by their core readership when they published an article on the Hawker Hunter in one of their monthly warbird features.  Editorials and letters to the editor going back and forth on the topic went on for months.  They eventually came to something of an uneasy truce, but the hard core warbird types never gave ground.

No doubting the impact the Phantom had on military aviation over its long career.  Early in my career the F-4 was the standard against which the F-15/F-16 were judged, in engineering meetings it was very common to hear, "That's not the way we did it in the F-4".  There are a few countries still flying it operationally, and I last I heard there were a handful of F-4s at Tyndall and Holloman used as target drones.  And to think, I saw F-86s, then F-102s used as targets, and now they are using F-16s. *sigh*

Taaroa

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 14, 2016, 10:06:55 AM
if it doesn't have a prop and pistons they are at best disinterested.
I bet they wouldn't consider something like the AN2 or some of the old piston Cessnas used in combat to be warbirds either. Personally I'd probably consider anything used in a war to fall under the category.

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 14, 2016, 10:06:55 AM
There are a few countries still flying it operationally, and I last I heard there were a handful of F-4s at Tyndall and Holloman used as target drones.
I think the current countries with F4s in their fleet are Japan, Turkey, Iran, and Greece with Germany having retired them a few years ago. The Turks are even using them in operations and had one shot down a while ago.


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 14, 2016, 10:06:55 AM
.  Early in my career the F-4 was the standard against which the F-15/F-16 were judged, in engineering meetings it was very common to hear, "That's not the way we did it in the F-4". 

A similar story was told to me by my younger brother. His first job out of college was being employed as a software engineer with a company which made simulators. His job was programming on the Tornado fighter and bomber version sims.
The predecessor to the GR1 (bomber) was the Blackburn Buccaneer which was superior in range, low level performance and high subsonic speed for longer. The Tonka had a higher maximum speed but doing that reduced its range.
The Bucc in fact used as a tanker on exercises could loiter around for quite some time, refulling the Tonkas before they went to the target, and again on the way back so they could get home.

Anyway, on his team were guys who had worked on Buccs and frustrated my brother because they kept saying stuff like; "Well, the Buccaneer could do that"  ;D

Dyna-X

Quote from: Uncle Duke on December 14, 2016, 10:06:55 AM
The serious warbird guys are still living in the 40s, if it doesn't have a prop and pistons they are at best disinterested.  It wasn't all that long ago one of the UK magazines (either "FlyPast" or "Aeroplane") faced a near revolt by their core readership when they published an article on the Hawker Hunter in one of their monthly warbird features.  Editorials and letters to the editor going back and forth on the topic went on for months.  They eventually came to something of an uneasy truce, but the hard core warbird types never gave ground.

No doubting the impact the Phantom had on military aviation over its long career.  Early in my career the F-4 was the standard against which the F-15/F-16 were judged, in engineering meetings it was very common to hear, "That's not the way we did it in the F-4".  There are a few countries still flying it operationally, and I last I heard there were a handful of F-4s at Tyndall and Holloman used as target drones.  And to think, I saw F-86s, then F-102s used as targets, and now they are using F-16s. *sigh*

Its a generational thing, I suppose. The prop vs. jet argument might not hold as much meaning in 20 years when all the air fighters, bombers and recon are remote controlled/automated drones.  Then the War Birds Fans will reminisce over anything that had a pilot. The older planes (just like cars of the same vintage) had individual character. The odd sounds, patterns and idiosyncrasies of a given plane gave the pilot a feeling of comfort in familiarity. There were plenty of manual workarounds to problems. Now they are so automated they are nearly passengers by the standards of the stick n' rudder era - a redundant double check on monitoring systems and mission. The F-4 and early F-14 era seemed to be the golden age of performance and hands-on know how in balance.

Seeing the fighters you mentioned as drone targets would be painful, like putting down a lame horse.

Dyna-X

Makes m misty eyed to watch this kind of awesomeness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3irhyNzKXA

Yorkshire pud

This from a series that was on tv in the 70's. Sailor was an early fly on the wall (real 'reality' tv). Ark Royal is at sea, and she's collecting her flock of Phantoms and Bucceneers. Some of the pilots are RAF and have never landed on a carrier before. The clipped tones of the Royal Navy commander aside, its quite interesting. The whole series is on dvd, and I copied a sequence and put in the original music, but google removed it, but then helpfully put in an ad to sell the music cd on my channel!

https://youtu.be/jv8prm4mGEQ

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