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Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)

Started by albrecht, November 13, 2015, 03:50:16 PM

albrecht

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 23, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
I'm sure it does.  I bet the "cost" of losing one business day in Brussels is hundreds of millions â,¬, and this is Day 3 of the hysteria.  I think they're over reacting big time.
I'm sure it is costing more than that. Businesses, schools, restaurants, sporting events, concerts, rail system, taxis, coffee shops, tourism, etc. Crazy to shut down for this long. I can understand if there was a credible threat to a specific place/event but the whole friggin city? For days?

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on November 23, 2015, 03:27:44 PM
I'm sure it is costing more than that. Businesses, schools, restaurants, sporting events, concerts, rail system, taxis, coffee shops, tourism, etc. Crazy to shut down for this long. I can understand if there was a credible threat to a specific place/event but the whole friggin city? For days?

It's tempting to ask whether there is much difference between a Brussels on lockdown and a Brussels that is working as normal. I  don't think Belgium is anyone's idea of the last word in molten excitement. It's just one of those poxy little countries that people try to forget. Like Luxembourg and Lichtenstein.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 23, 2015, 04:01:07 PM
It's tempting to ask whether there is much difference between a Brussels on lockdown and a Brussels that is working as normal. I  don't think Belgium is anyone's idea of the last word in molten excitement. It's just one of those poxy little countries that people try to forget. Like Luxembourg and Lichtenstein.
Lest you forget people in Brussels and Luxembourg essentially run much of your country, and much of Europe, so maybe it is a good thing to shut them down for a bit? Still it is amazing that a whole city can shut down for a few Muslims. Doesn't this response buy into their plan?

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on November 23, 2015, 04:10:28 PM
Lest you forget people in Brussels and Luxembourg essentially run much of your country, and much of Europe, so maybe it is a good thing to shut them down for a bit? Still it is amazing that a whole city can shut down for a few Muslims. Doesn't this response buy into their plan?

It's a bad precedent, and I am surprised that it isn't getting more concern than it is at the moment. If they could do that in Brussels and get away with it then what comes next? And I am not someone who buys into conspiracy theories much. You could see it as some kind of acculturation process, if you were inclines. Alex Jones and co love to scream 'martial law' at every opportunity, well that might be at the early stages of happening. Naturally, that fat oaf is too busy flogging his magic beans to worry about stuff that might actually be important, but I don't like the look of this, as a sign for the future.

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 23, 2015, 04:20:54 PM
It's a bad precedent, and I am surprised that it isn't getting more concern than it is at the moment. If they could do that in Brussels and get away with it then what comes next? And I am not someone who buys into conspiracy theories much. You could see it as some kind of acculturation process, if you were inclines. Alex Jones and co love to scream 'martial law' at every opportunity, well that might be at the early stages of happening. Naturally, that fat oaf is too busy flogging his magic beans to worry about stuff that might actually be important, but I don't like the look of this, as a sign for the future.
We had similar "lockdown" after the Boston bombings that was criticized by some. But at least it was only for a relatively short time period. This deal in Brussels is going on days and it what terrorists want: to disrupt life, the economy, the culture, etc. I understand "lock-downs" for specific, credible threats or during actual emergencies, clean up etc. But I think you are correct that there increasingly is a "new normal" being accepted by many to see troops in the streets, armed security everywhere, government snooping, timely security checks at airports, trains, etc.

ps: I'm sure Alex will be talking his "false-flags" and/or government martial law stuff. He recently divorced and his ex got a decent settlement, child support, and at least one of the houses (Texas is 'community property' state) so he needs to be 'flogging his magic beans' even more these days I suspect.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 23, 2015, 04:01:07 PM
It's tempting to ask whether there is much difference between a Brussels on lockdown and a Brussels that is working as normal. I  don't think Belgium is anyone's idea of the last word in molten excitement. It's just one of those poxy little countries that people try to forget. Like Luxembourg and Lichtenstein.

In the words of Mrs No-Supper-for-You of Norwood, "Miserable, fat Belgian bastards".

paladin1991

Quote from: GravitySucks on November 23, 2015, 11:13:11 AM
This page will give you the names of the Roman historrians at the time. You can use their names to find the original source material. It lists 3.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

There was a Jewish historian named Josephus. Sane with that you can goigle to find the original source material.
Well, there it is.

paladin1991

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 23, 2015, 02:26:36 PM
IIRC, historians can just barely confirm Pontius Pilate's tenure in Judea, let alone one of thousands of criminals he may have condemned.

*shrug*  and except for some random postings here, I don't know that you exist.    What's your point?

paladin1991

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 23, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
I'm sure it does.  I bet the "cost" of losing one business day in Brussels is hundreds of millions â,¬, and this is Day 3 of the hysteria.  I think they're over reacting big time.

They react like they react...we will react like we will react. 

paladin1991

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 23, 2015, 04:01:07 PM
It's tempting to ask whether there is much difference between a Brussels on lockdown and a Brussels that is working as normal. I  don't think Belgium is anyone's idea of the last word in molten excitement. It's just one of those poxy little countries that people try to forget. Like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein and England.
fixed

Quote from: pyewacket on November 22, 2015, 04:23:01 PM
There are those who claim that the Christ figure and story was based on Mithra. I've believed that for years, but tend to keep it to myself.  ;) :)

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

Actually, Mithraism most likely borrowed heavily from Christianity. We know this because there is no known writing that presents Mithraism in a manner that, to some degree, resembles Christianity, until well after the establishment of Christianity.

Meister_000

Pye and SV (in particular);

This bit from Wikipedia will provide a quick outline of the key terms, persons, and context within which to place and inquire further about the "Celtic" [aka Irish] role in our story. You'll see better here (and I learned from it as well) how and why they were "the first-links" in a chain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism  (more here)

- Early Scholasticism -

The first significant renewal of learning in the West came with the Carolingian Renaissance of the Early Middle Ages. Charlemagne, advised by Peter of Pisa and Alcuin of York, attracted the scholars of England and Ireland. By decree in AD 787, he established schools in every abbey in his empire. These schools, from which the name scholasticism is derived, became centers of medieval learning.

During this period, knowledge of Ancient Greek had vanished in the west except in Ireland, where its teaching and use was widely dispersed in the monastic schools.[6] Irish scholars had a considerable presence in the Frankish court, where they were renowned for their learning.[7] Among them was Johannes Scotus Eriugena, (815â€"877) one of the founders of scholasticism.[8] Eriugena was the most significant Irish intellectual of the early monastic period, and an outstanding philosopher in terms of originality.[7] He had considerable familiarity with the Greek language and translated many works into Latin, affording access to the Cappadocian Fathers and the Greek theological tradition.[7]

The other three founders of scholasticism were the 11th-century scholars Peter Abelard, Archbishop Lanfranc of Canterbury and Archbishop Anselm of Canterbury.[8]

This period saw the beginning of the 'rediscovery' of many Greek works which had been lost to the Latin West. As early as the 10th century, scholars in Spain had begun to gather translated texts and, in the latter half of that century, began transmitting them to the rest of Europe.[9] After the Reconquista of the 12th century, Spain opened even further for Christian scholars, who were now able to work in 'friendly' religious territory.[10] As these Europeans encountered Islamic philosophy, they opened a wealth of Arab knowledge of mathematics and astronomy.[11]

At the same time, Anselm of Laon systematised the production of the gloss on Scripture, followed by the rise to prominence of dialectic (the middle subject of the medieval trivium) in the work of Abelard. Peter Lombard produced a collection of Sentences, or opinions of the Church Fathers and other authorities [12]

- High Scholasticism -

The 13th and early 14th centuries are generally seen as the high period of scholasticism. The early 13th century witnessed the culmination of the recovery of Greek philosophy. Schools of translation grew up in Italy and Sicily, and eventually in the rest of Europe. Scholars such as Adelard of Bath travelled to Sicily and the Arab world, translating works on astronomy and mathematics, including the first complete translation of Euclid's Elements.[13] Powerful Norman kings gathered men of knowledge from Italy and other areas into their courts as a sign of their prestige.[14] William of Moerbeke's translations and editions of Greek philosophical texts in the middle half of the thirteenth century helped form a clearer picture of Greek philosophy, particularly of Aristotle, than was given by the Arabic versions on which they had previously relied, and which had distorted or obscured the relation between Platonic and Aristotelian systems of philosophy.[15] His work formed the basis of the major commentaries that followed.

Universities developed in the large cities of Europe during this period, and rival clerical orders within the church began to battle for political and intellectual control over these centers of educational life. The two main orders founded in this period were the Franciscans and the Dominicans. The Franciscans were founded by Francis of Assisi in 1209. Their leader in the middle of the century was Bonaventure, a traditionalist who defended the theology of Augustine and the philosophy of Plato, incorporating only a little of Aristotle in with the more neoplatonist elements. Following Anselm, Bonaventure supposed that reason can only discover truth when philosophy is illuminated by religious faith. Other important Franciscan scholastics were Duns Scotus, Peter Auriol and William of Ockham.

By contrast, the Dominican order, a teaching order founded by St Dominic in 1215, to propagate and defend Christian doctrine, placed more emphasis on the use of reason and made extensive use of the new Aristotelian sources derived from the East and Moorish Spain. The great representatives of Dominican thinking in this period were Albertus Magnus and (especially) Thomas Aquinas, whose artful synthesis of Greek rationalism and Christian doctrine eventually came to define Catholic philosophy. Aquinas placed more emphasis on reason and argumentation, and was one of the first to use the new translation of Aristotle's metaphysical and epistemological writing. This was a significant departure from the Neoplatonic and Augustinian thinking that had dominated much of early scholasticism. Aquinas showed how it was possible to incorporate much of the philosophy of Aristotle without falling into the "errors" of the Commentator, Averroes.

Meister_000

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 22, 2015, 10:39:59 AM

I have only heard about one book that is addressing these different issues. I haven't read it yet, but it might be of interest to people who want to find some kind of bridge between the two before it is too late.

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tolerance-A-Dialogue/dp/0674088700

SV;
The book reviews at Amazon pointed to a YouTube video of the authors in discussion and taking some audience Q&A. I just got finished watching it and liked what I saw. It's a 70 min talk. (And thanks for the pointer.)

Islam & the Future of Tolerance - Maajid Nawaz & Sam Harris

Published on Sep 15, 2015. Taped at Harvard University's Institute of Politics. Moderated by Juliette Kayyem, Lecturer in Public Policy, Harvard Kennedy School of Government.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YTd4-WXw2SM


SredniVashtar

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 24, 2015, 04:44:11 AM
Pye and SV (in particular);

This bit from Wikipedia will provide a quick outline of the key terms, persons, and context within which to place and inquire further about the "Celtic" [aka Irish] role in our story. You'll see better here (and I learned from it as well) how and why they were "the first-links" in a chain.

I don't know if you are familiar with it, but there was a famous TV programme back in the '60s, presented by the art critic Kenneth Clark called "Civilisation". One of the early episodes was called, I think, "The Skin of our Teeth" and goes into that a bit, although necessarily simplified for a mass audience. He talks about the Celts and how they fled to Skellig Michael, and also mentions Peter Abelard and the monastery at Cluny. It's well worth a look if you haven't seen it. The whole series is of a high standard, and still holds up even today because they combined high production values with someone who was actually (and how old-fashioned it seems today) trying to communicate things in a way that could be understood without talking down to the audience.

pyewacket

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 24, 2015, 04:44:11 AM
Pye and SV (in particular);

This bit from Wikipedia will provide a quick outline of the key terms, persons, and context within which to place and inquire further about the "Celtic" [aka Irish] role in our story. You'll see better here (and I learned from it as well) how and why they were "the first-links" in a chain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism  (more here)

Thank you so much, Meister. We owe a great debt to those who understood the immeasurable value of knowledge.

pyewacket

Quote from: FightTheFuture on November 24, 2015, 04:37:26 AM
Actually, Mithraism most likely borrowed heavily from Christianity. We know this because there is no known writing that presents Mithraism in a manner that, to some degree, resembles Christianity, until well after the establishment of Christianity.

I haven't seen anything that convinces me to believe your statement and I respectfully disagree.

Mithra was from the Indo-Persian religions that go back centuries before Christianity. Mithra is also found in the Vedic religion which is more than 3500 years old. The Roman version was developed during Pompey's military campaign against Cilician pirates around 70 BCE.

I'm not sure if you meant to add the link I had previously supplied in my earlier post. Have you read it? There is a section, Mithra and Christ, that provides evidence of the motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity from several sources.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

Meister_000

Quote from: pyewacket on November 24, 2015, 01:49:22 PM
Thank you so much, Meister. We owe a great debt to those who understood the immeasurable value of knowledge.

Yes. And if we'd only do our ancestors proud and become worthy of their efforts on our behalves -- what a wonderful world this might be!

Meister_000

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 24, 2015, 09:42:30 AM
I don't know if you are familiar with it, but there was a famous TV programme back in the '60s, presented by the art critic Kenneth Clark called "Civilisation". One of the early episodes was called, I think, "The Skin of our Teeth" and goes into that a bit, although necessarily simplified for a mass audience. He talks about the Celts and how they fled to Skellig Michael, and also mentions Peter Abelard and the monastery at Cluny. It's well worth a look if you haven't seen it. The whole series is of a high standard, and still holds up even today because they combined high production values with someone who was actually (and how old-fashioned it seems today) trying to communicate things in a way that could be understood without talking down to the audience.

Hi SV. I watched 1.5 episodes of Clark's BBC "Civilization" on YouTube last night after your post. I'm torn between being gentle or "Going Bellgab" on this piece of work. I'll leave it at this; "we _must_ do better" to get where we need to go. Keep digging, better bones beckon. That said, there is always "something" to be learned and gained from such shows. Good Teachers, both for the masses and then also Master-Teachers, those who Teach-the-Teachers, ARE "the first links" in the chain -- "The Indispensables" and "The Irreplaceables". Someone make _that_ series please!

paladin1991

Quote from: pyewacket on November 24, 2015, 02:14:37 PM
I haven't seen anything that convinces me to believe your statement and I respectfully disagree.

Mithra was from the Indo-Persian religions that go back centuries before Christianity. Mithra is also found in the Vedic religion which is more than 3500 years old. The Roman version was developed during Pompey's military campaign against Cilician pirates around 70 BCE.

I'm not sure if you meant to add the link I had previously supplied in my earlier post. Have you read it? There is a section, Mithra and Christ, that provides evidence of the motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity from several sources.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

I gotta call Bullshit here.  Mithra is the friendly giant moth of Japanese lore.

Meister_000

Quote from: Unscreened Caller on November 22, 2015, 11:53:12 AM
It might be time to re-read Hannah Arendt and her work of political philosophy, particularly on the nature of evil. She observed Eichmann's trial in Jerusalem and noted the banality of a man who didn't engage in critical thought, who lived a "normal" life while committing atrocities because he was "just following orders". The more I read about the Paris bombings, the more it strikes me that the mastermind who was killed in St-Denis and his female cousin fit this profile. He had gotten into petty trouble with the police. She had affection deficit disorder, was a product of the foster care system, drank, smoke and was a party girl who began wearing the hijab and then a full face veil two weeks before the attacks. Somehow, he had been turned to the extent that he could pose, smiling, while dragging mutilated bodies behind. Neither of them were religious or were versed in or practiced any form of Islam until they were turned.  This is not to excuse them. Like Eichmann, the world is better off without them, but the insidiousness of the "surrender" part of Islam can't be overestimated, nor the psychology of people Arendt identifies as those who never made the choice to be good, nor the skilled predators who look for the morally vacuous, disconnected and marginalized and turn them into willing suicide bombers and mass murderers. 

I don't know what the solution is. I don't think the world has learned much after the  concentration camps, Cambodia, Rwanda or the disappeared in Latin America and Mexico, but the madness that leads to mass slaughter by ordinary people is a phenomena that resurfaces with sickening regularity. That old sci fi gem, Quatermass and the Pit, in retrospect was a masterpiece of prescience.


Hi Caller;
I hope you weren't feeling snubbed or ignored all this time.

I have almost no knowledge of Arendt other than her being in my peripheral view on occasion while exploring late 20th cent. Moral Philosophy, the Kantian carved waters in particular, i.e. Duty-Talk generally, Normative Action and Obligation, and then Rights-Talk mediated by that. So, she's in my sights, in range, but never directly targeted yet.

Peeking at Amazon, her books "Responsibility and Judgment" and "On Violence" catch my eye, I'm sure you're referring specifically to "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil", at least. Peeking at Wikipedia; now that I see that her book "The Origins of Totalitarianism" is her critique of human rights vrs civil rights, I'd look at that one too. She's also Kant influenced (but then who in the modern world isn't, in some way or another).

Without having read her, but looking again at your message; my "hook-in" to the line of thought you're invoking, Caller, would be that of "Homelessness", Mass Indifference if not Contempt for same (called Sociopathy in other quarters), and Homelessness compounded by the Criminalization of same, and, as if that wasn't enough, Unprincipled Lawless Thugs wearing the "Colors of Office" (Blue) who are "Just doing their Jobs"? -- which works are entitled Authentic Domestic Terrorism on _my_ Home-Planet. The Homeless are the modern everyday equivalent of Concentration Camp Victims, only worse. The Nazi's at least had the decency to "put them out of their misery" in fairly short order, while WE prefer and are content to watch them slowly rot, perish is too pretty a word, and be driven insane over the coarse of _tens_ of years or however less time it takes for their hearts to collapse or explode from sleep-deprived exhaustion, climactic exposure, criminal neglect, savage and merciless inequality.

To link-back-to yet re-purpose your words; "the insidiousness of the surrender" of our individual ownership of social, civil, and moral responsibility by our having become "Socialized" by our "culture" into believing and accepting that the homeless are "someone else's" problem, and even the failure or refusal to recognize that they are _Human_, i.e. to dehumanize and disassociate seems "a parallel" in common with our original point-of-entry topics. So yes, I think Hanna and I would see eye-to eye well enough. And also yes, if it is She who might help address _both_ of these morally-pressing issues at once, then let the Resurrection begin! [and thank you for the recommendation]

A "Thanks-Giving", seems most appropriate and well-timed, just now.


Quote from: pyewacket on November 24, 2015, 02:14:37 PM
I haven't seen anything that convinces me to believe your statement and I respectfully disagree.

Mithra was from the Indo-Persian religions that go back centuries before Christianity. Mithra is also found in the Vedic religion which is more than 3500 years old. The Roman version was developed during Pompey's military campaign against Cilician pirates around 70 BCE.

I'm not sure if you meant to add the link I had previously supplied in my earlier post. Have you read it? There is a section, Mithra and Christ, that provides evidence of the motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity from several sources.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

No one doubts the fact that Mithraism existed prior to Christianity. But there is nothing in writing that compares even remotely to Christianity until over a century after Christianity has been fully established. It is all gibberish until late 2nd or early 3rd century. The Zeigeist has been torn to shreds by modern scholars. It`s rubbish.

pyewacket

Quote from: FightTheFuture on November 25, 2015, 07:59:15 AM
No one doubts the fact that Mithraism existed prior to Christianity. But there is nothing in writing that compares even remotely to Christianity until over a century after Christianity has been fully established. It is all gibberish until late 2nd or early 3rd century. The Zeigeist has been torn to shreds by modern scholars. It`s rubbish.

I understand that you are invested in your beliefs, but this still doesn't convince me and I absolve you of any obligation to try. If you like an article content, you describe it as "scholarly" - if you don't, you dismiss it as "gibberish" and "rubbish", so there's no point in continuing.

Faith can be boiled down to a simple, pithy definition I've seen on bumper stickers: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." I'll pass, thank you.


pyewacket

Quote from: paladin1991 on November 25, 2015, 03:27:57 AM
I gotta call Bullshit here.  Mithra is the friendly giant moth of Japanese lore.

Heretic!!! Mothra is displeased- beg the great Mothra to forgive you and do your penance.


Quote from: pyewacket on November 25, 2015, 09:48:33 AM
I understand that you are invested in your beliefs, but this still doesn't convince me and I absolve you of any obligation to try. If you like an article content, you describe it as "scholarly" - if you don't, you dismiss it as "gibberish" and "rubbish", so there's no point in continuing.

Faith can be boiled down to a simple, pithy definition I've seen on bumper stickers: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." I'll pass, thank you.


You make an audacious claim and have nothing at all to back it. WHERE ARE THE WRITINGS? You have nothing. Mithraism was not even KNOWN in the Roman empire until over a hundred years after all 4 gospels had been written, the authors in the ground, and Christianity spreading like wildfire. You`re free to believe what you want, but I will continue to call you out on your idiotic claims that run contrary to established fact.

pyewacket

Quote from: FightTheFuture on November 25, 2015, 10:05:51 AM

You make an audacious claim and have nothing at all to back it.  ...

You`re free to believe what you want, but I will continue to call you out on your idiotic claims that run contrary to established fact.

The speed of the condescension and name calling injected in any attempt at debate with true believers never ceases to amaze me. Carry on without me.  ::)

Quote from: pyewacket on November 25, 2015, 10:19:22 AM
The speed of the condescension and name calling injected in any attempt at debate with true believers never ceases to amaze me. Carry on without me.  ::)

Be a pleasure.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 24, 2015, 11:14:42 PM
Hi SV. I watched 1.5 episodes of Clark's BBC "Civilization" on YouTube last night after your post. I'm torn between being gentle or "Going Bellgab" on this piece of work.

I think you are being much too harsh. I don't know what you objected to in it particularly, but don't forget that it is a TV show, and you can't expect much in the way of detailed commentary, only enough to interest the average viewer, and perhaps start a few hares running. It's beautifully shot, for one thing, but it isn't just about pretty pictures - K Clark gives us his view of what his idea of civilisation is, while stressing that it is a "personal view". There will be various sins of omission, of course, and I don't think he had the highest opinion of the first two episodes either (not a view I share, actually) but it is one of the great achievements of TV, that still repays watching even now.

I think of it as rather like the book "The Story of Art" by Ernst Gombrich. Yes, you can pick holes in it till the cows come home, but it was supposed to be an introduction for a general audience to a topic that can seem impenetrable to an outsider.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: pyewacket on November 25, 2015, 10:19:22 AM
The speed of the condescension and name calling injected in any attempt at debate with true believers never ceases to amaze me. Carry on without me.  ::)

That's him turning the other cheek. 'True' Christianity is pick and mix; choose the bits you like (which can change at any time)  and ignore the bits you don't like. Simple.

Meister_000

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 25, 2015, 12:48:00 PM
I think you are being much too harsh. I don't know what you objected to in it particularly, but don't forget that it is a TV show, and you can't expect much in the way of detailed commentary, only enough to interest the average viewer, and perhaps start a few hares running. It's beautifully shot, for one thing, but it isn't just about pretty pictures - K Clark gives us his view of what his idea of civilisation is, while stressing that it is a "personal view". There will be various sins of omission, of course, and I don't think he had the highest opinion of the first two episodes either (not a view I share, actually) but it is one of the great achievements of TV, that still repays watching even now.

I think of it as rather like the book "The Story of Art" by Ernst Gombrich. Yes, you can pick holes in it till the cows come home, but it was supposed to be an introduction for a general audience to a topic that can seem impenetrable to an outsider.

I have high standards with little room for compromise, so no apologies. The bar can be raised for the same or less budget.

For comparison and models-of-excellence to be held high and to report home about, see these two eternal favorites, also of BBC UK production . . .

James Burke's : "Connections"
and, "The Day the Universe Changed"
(available on YouTube)

THIS is Jewel-Grade stuff -- the kind of stuff "Her Majesty" would allow to bear her Mark, her Imprimatur -- when only the best will do.  (and I speak of a Queen Divine)

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