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Racism - Remnant of the Past or Alive Today?

Started by DoYouThinkItWasAngels, April 23, 2011, 09:15:46 PM

Quote from: anagrammy on April 21, 2011, 09:25:19 AM
Recently I attended a series of classes on white privilege because I found myself irritated with the anger of the African Americans around me.  I found myself thinking, "Why do they get to be African Americans and it's ok to call me 'white'".  To my surprise, I learned that I was blind to the racism around me.

As an African American, I can tell you that you were sold a bill of goods here.

EvB

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on April 23, 2011, 09:15:46 PM
As an African American, I can tell you that you were sold a bill of goods here.


okay - you got me - can you explain that to an aging WASP hippy?

Quote from: EvB on April 24, 2011, 10:01:20 PM

okay - i know this is the LMH thread - but you got me - can you explain that to an aging WASP hippy?

There are traveling hucksters, such as the PISAB and Tim Wise, who make their living selling guilt and then redemption to well-meaning white people, like a weird political cult aimed at those too smart for religious cults.

It's based on a pack of lies around how terrible it is to be off-white in the USA. Nonsense! It's actually pretty darn good.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on April 24, 2011, 10:36:08 PM
There are traveling hucksters, such as the PISAB and Tim Wise, who make their living selling guilt and then redemption to well-meaning white people, like a weird political cult aimed at those too smart for religious cults.

It's based on a pack of lies around how terrible it is to be off-white in the USA. Nonsense! It's actually pretty darn good.

     Watch out!  Morris Dees and Mark Potok may you on the "enemies list" for outrageous statements like that. It's bad for their "business".

EvB

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on April 24, 2011, 10:36:08 PM

It's based on a pack of lies around how terrible it is to be off-white in the USA. Nonsense! It's actually pretty darn good.


Ah yes-  I get you. 

I will say that I think privilege and so-called "whiteness" is more of a sociological, class and perspective issue  than it is a matter of genetics. At least in contemporary times. Condeliza Rice, as one example, is a "good 'ol boy" despite the fact that she dos not fit the (physiological) image.

It was not so long ago, in historical terms, that the Jews and the Irish - as just two examples - were not thought of as "white" in this context.  Yet today, on many sociological statistic tables, Asian Americans are considered "white" because the way in which they value hard work and education has brought them into the sphere of social influence with enough monetary and social capital to play the game, even if they are on the B team.

There is, IMO, a kind of comradeship between those in the powerful minority of the wealthy that operates to keep those of us (most of us) who do not qualify as members of the club pointing fingers at each other, rather than at the puppet-masters. Just one example of the kind of thing that gets people angry is affirmative action - an idea that started out as well-meaning with positive motivations behind it - has been promoted and executed in such a way as to keep those of us who are still scrambling and scratching to busy resenting each other (the 'more worthy/oppressed than thou' syndrome) to notice we're being played.

I do agree that the issue is much more nuanced than the Tim Whites, Paul Kivels, and their ilk would have us believe.

anagrammy

Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on April 24, 2011, 10:36:08 PM
There are traveling hucksters, such as the PISAB and Tim Wise, who make their living selling guilt and then redemption to well-meaning white people, like a weird political cult aimed at those too smart for religious cults.

It's based on a pack of lies around how terrible it is to be off-white in the USA. Nonsense! It's actually pretty darn good.


DOUBLE TAKE-- Excuse please, angels, am I understanding you to be saying there is no racism in the USA today?  Because if you are, I will immediately send you to bed with a half dozen American History textbooks from middle school and we will start talking about the importance of accurate history, for starters.  As long as American history textbooks are propaganda that America the Good has never knowingly done anything bad, students will be left wondering why the fuss.  As long as the history books never give the underlying ideals which made this country unique, they will fail to inspire.  And as long as the history books deliberately distort the values which were worth dying over, our children will never understand their own country, let alone the rest of the world.  America isn't perfect and pretending it is is ridiculous.  We need to own what we did for love, what we did for money, and what we did for spite. And how we, the citizens, continue the fight for freedom.


It's not over.


Anagrammy

Marc.Knight

Quote from: anagrammy on April 25, 2011, 01:12:43 AM

    Quote from: Do you think it was angels? on Yesterday at 11:36:08 PM
There are traveling hucksters, such as the PISAB and Tim Wise, who make their living selling guilt and then redemption to well-meaning white people, like a weird political cult aimed at those too smart for religious cults.

It's based on a pack of lies around how terrible it is to be off-white in the USA. Nonsense! It's actually pretty darn good.
 

DOUBLE TAKE-- Excuse please, angels, am I understanding you to be saying there is no racism in the USA today?  Because if you are, I will immediately send you to bed with a half dozen American History textbooks from middle school and we will start talking about the importance of accurate history, for starters.  As long as American history textbooks are propaganda that America the Good has never knowingly done anything bad, students will be left wondering why the fuss.  As long as the history books never give the underlying ideals which made this country unique, they will fail to inspire.  And as long as the history books deliberately distort the values which were worth dying over, our children will never understand their own country, let alone the rest of the world.  America isn't perfect and pretending it is is ridiculous.  We need to own what we did for love, what we did for money, and what we did for spite. And how we, the citizens, continue the fight for freedom.


It's not over.


Anagrammy

On the face of it, she did not state that there is no racism today, simply that the quality of life for non-caucasians has improved a lot over the years.  I tend to agree, and would add that much of the so-called racial justice or equality movements today are nothing more than a means to seek artificial economic advantage. 

b_dubb

Quote from: EvB on April 24, 2011, 11:22:59 PMCondeliza Rice, as one example, is a "good 'ol boy" despite the fact that she dos not fit the (physiological) image
Condi is a Yes Man.  which ... in her situation ... required that she be a redneck/good ol boy

aldousburbank

Quote from: anagrammy on April 25, 2011, 01:12:43 AM

DOUBLE TAKE-- Excuse please, angels, am I understanding you to be saying there is no racism in the USA today?
Racism today?  Definitely.  I see it every time my 20 year old asks me which box he should check on his college forms- caucasian, hispanic, native american- he is all 3.  I till him to draw a middle finger each time.  When I visit my local seed bank, they try to give me my purchases free, because I'm native.  I always refuse and pay the full price.  This reverse racism pisses me off as much as any other.  I'm an american guys, leave your freakin tags for me at home!

onan

Screw me bloody... here I go again.

To suggest there is no racism in today's America is staggering. I will concede that in many aspects it may be judged as much less apparent. And many minorities are enjoying benefits that sixty years ago did not exist.

Racism today is not (if you will forgive the analogy) so black and white. Institutional racism is prevalent in the health system, and the legal system. The measure of how deep the racism goes is for someone else to debate. My experience in mental health gives me a pretty good view of the inequities. My experience in forensic psychiatric assessments most assuredly gives me some insight into the inequities in the legal system.
I won't go into detail because of HIPAA, but trust me whites get a much better shake at the "forgive the crazy" tree.

I really can't speak to the generatioanal indoctrination that racism may/probably plays.

As evident as it is that racism sucks, racism also has long and twisted roots and vines that have altered the garden forever.

Eddie Coyle



      "White privilege" is one of the most digusting,hateful terms in today's jargon. It's the babble of race hustlers and their aging guilty white liberal benefactors. Because ALL WHITES have the same life experience,right? We're some wealthy fucking monolith living off the sweat of dark-complected people.

     So many Caucasians view self-loathing as the highest paragon of virtue. Big yellow streak up their backs...they can't expire soon enough.

       

anagrammy

Quote from: The Philosopher on April 25, 2011, 07:17:34 AM

On the face of it, she did not state that there is no racism today, simply that the quality of life for non-caucasians has improved a lot over the years.  I tend to agree, and would add that much of the so-called racial justice or equality movements today are nothing more than a means to seek artificial economic advantage.

Exactly.  Thanks for making my point.  American history textbooks which teach an inaccurate history of, oh, say Columbus, create an adult who does not understand that movements are fueled by deep ideals which remain, even though issues are deemed resolved.  Abortion is a perfect example.  You can see how Roe v. Wade did not settle this issue in America.  It is still deeply troubling for many and is still being argued.  You can trivialize that debate by saying it's all about the money, and many people do.

My point is that its about ideas and how very barren our history books are in teaching how great ideas have bumped into each other like tectonic plates colliding and created sociological earthquakes. 

Instead of dismissing a movement as being all about the money (which is an almost Nooryesq bumper sticker response akin to "they want to control us"), have you ever wondered why they keep going since we have all these civil rights laws?  Do you wonder why there's a hispanic now leading the NAACP?  And how do African Americans feel about that?  Do you ask yourself if there are differences in wages for different races?  And if you believe things are so much better, what is your measuring stick?

I'm suggesting that full citizenship and a feeling of being fully American starts with our real history. We here at CoastGab talk all the time about how the government lies and covers up.  Imagine if the real history of your ancestors was obliterated?  Imagine if you read a history book as a young child that was titled "Your People Fail Again."  When our children read "The Triumph of the American Nation," they quickly see that that means the triumph of the White American Nation at the expense of everyone else.

We bill ourselves as a melting pot.  We had an ideal, a glorious ideal, that people come here to become American, to become one of us.  It didn't quite work out and so now our glorious ideal is that people come here to be free of oppression so they can be their Bulgarian/Columbian/Russian/German/Italian selves.

And sneak in their relatives.  This is a country churning and yet many think history is boring.  Well, it is if the life is sucked out of it.  And as you know, Philosopher, the life of a movement is the ideal behind it.  The suffragette movement doesn't exist any more because the problem was resolved.  Summon your natural curiosity to overcome your irritation and ask yourself what is really behind these equality movements?

Anagrammy

PS.  One thing I thought was funny as I was tossing around ideas in my head--the minorities think that white privilege pulls the strings, the white think that the elite white NWO pull the strings.  And now we hear that the Trilateral Commission bunch thinks the media pull the strings!  hahahaha


onan

In 1994 before I switched careers, I worked in the printing industry. I had a particular skill/craft that at that time paid very well.

One day a driver (black guy) for the company came into my department and asked if I would help him learn what I did. I told him I would speak to the plant manager that day.

I was told in rather vague speak that there were no openings for those that did our deliveries and if I valued my job I would drop it. So I did, I quit.

I dunno if that is white guilt, white priviledge, or just a fuckin shitty day. But it was definately racism in practice.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: onan on April 25, 2011, 10:15:40 AM
In 1994 before I switched careers, I worked in the printing industry. I had a particular skill/craft that at that time paid very well.

One day a driver (black guy) for the company came into my department and asked if I would help him learn what I did. I told him I would speak to the plant manager that day.

I was told in rather vague speak that there were no openings for those that did our deliveries and if I valued my job I would drop it. So I did, I quit.

I dunno if that is white guilt, white priviledge, or just a fuckin shitty day. But it was definately racism in practice.

         Looking for work in the Boston area, I was turned down for about 8 jobs "That Americans don't do" with a not too subtle hint from 5 of them, that I wouldn't be hired because I was over-educated and well...WHITE. These employers basically hire only Latin Americans, non-unionized and not likely to be there for more than a year...

       Yeah, that white privilege is such a fucking gift.

onan

Quote from: Eddie Coyle on April 25, 2011, 10:20:46 AM
         Looking for work in the Boston area, I was turned down for about 8 jobs "That Americans don't do" with a not too subtle hint from 5 of them, that I wouldn't be hired because I was over-educated and well...WHITE. These employers basically hire only Latin Americans, non-unionized and not likely to be there for more than a year...

       Yeah, that white privilege is such a fucking gift.

I understand being unemployed and having the wolves at the door and nothing but your ass to hand to them. Yeah I fully admit that there today is reverse racism. I was in a part of Pittsburgh called East Liberty on a sunday morning and the only white guy in the restaurant. Three young gentlemen stood up and said something to the effect of, "WTF is whitey doing here? All I know is he better leave!"

As a friend of mine related of another story in Pittsburgh, he was walking near an area called Point Park and got mugged by two black guys. As they were running off he yelled at them "You make it hard to be a liberal".

Only once in my years of work have I been given the "you are too educated" brush off. But on one other occasion I was greeted upon entering the interview "Well here is one that isn't a darkie." I just turned around and walked off.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: onan on April 25, 2011, 10:30:20 AM


Only once in my years of work have I been given the "you are too educated" brush off.

      In the field of manual labor, having a college degree is viewed with deep suspicion; a real vibe of "why the fuck are you here" prevails. You're better off with a criminal record, I wish I was being sardonic...but it's a deeply depressing scenario. Non-unionized workplaces view college-educated persons as potential Emma Goldmans

Marc.Knight

Quote from: onan on April 25, 2011, 09:51:10 AM
Screw me bloody... here I go again.

To suggest there is no racism in today's America is staggering. I will concede that in many aspects it may be judged as much less apparent. And many minorities are enjoying benefits that sixty years ago did not exist.

Racism today is not (if you will forgive the analogy) so black and white. Institutional racism is prevalent in the health system, and the legal system. The measure of how deep the racism goes is for someone else to debate. My experience in mental health gives me a pretty good view of the inequities. My experience in forensic psychiatric assessments most assuredly gives me some insight into the inequities in the legal system.
I won't go into detail because of HIPAA, but trust me whites get a much better shake at the "forgive the crazy" tree.

I really can't speak to the generatioanal indoctrination that racism may/probably plays.

As evident as it is that racism sucks, racism also has long and twisted roots and vines that have altered the garden forever.


Who suggested that?

Marc.Knight

Quote from: Eddie Coyle on April 25, 2011, 10:38:57 AM
      In the field of manual labor, having a college degree is viewed with deep suspicion; a real vibe of "why the fuck are you here" prevails. You're better off with a criminal record, I wish I was being sardonic...but it's a deeply depressing scenario. Non-unionized workplaces view college-educated persons as potential Emma Goldmans


The same can be said in corporate jobs.  The idealistic MBA can soon find him or herself attacked by everyone else in management who got there without the the hard work and the $100,000 price tag.  

onan

Quote from: The Philosopher on April 25, 2011, 10:42:40 AM

Who suggested that?


Don't go gettin all nit-picky on me damnit. I took the sentiment from one of Do you think it was angels posts. I shoulda reread before posting... so shoot me.

But in my defense:

Quote from: anagrammy on April 25, 2011, 01:12:43 AM

angels, am I understanding you to be saying there is no racism in the USA today?
Anagrammy

anagrammy

I started this thread to gather an interesting discussion developing in the corners of the Linda Moulton Howe area.  I have recently taken a class on white privilege and reverse racism, which is really self-imposed segregation, to understand some peculiar goings on I saw here in Oakland. 

First off, I noticed that the black gay guy who had the same job I did (and was there before I was) was making half of what I was making.  I only learned that because they added payroll to my duties.  I decided that the company policy forbidding employees to talk about their salaries was obviously to conceal their unfair compensation practices.  So I told him to go ask for a raise and told him exactly what to say (since I used to work in employment law),

"I would like to have a raise in pay so that my compensation matches the white woman you hired who does the same job."  Bingo.  He is very talented and when I left, he was making more than I was!  So...how was it he started out running errands and sweeping the parking lot when he had all this ability?  Because being gay AND black is two strikes against you, he told me, and he was desperate. He said he thought he would start doing what the boss thought he could do (tote that bale) and then hopefully have a chance to show the boss he could use his brain.  I asked him how long he had been using this strategy (which I thought is a racism workaround).  He said, "My whole life."

I would like to hear other people's stories of racism and reverse racism.  We just don't hear about what's happening in the workplace because it doesn't make the news unless it ends in a murder or a lawsuit.

Anagrammy





onan

Quote from: The Philosopher on April 25, 2011, 10:51:07 AM

The same can be said in corporate jobs.  The idealistic MBA can soon find him or herself attacked by everyone else in management who got there without the the hard work and the $100,000 price tag.

I think that is a truism no matter what profession you talk about. I have seen highly educated and hard working co-workers be undermined by staff with less education due primarily to pettiness.

Here is the deal: anyone in management that is making a six figure income is more interested in keeping their position/power/income than they are with anyone else's skills. If someone shines too brightly, or rocks the boat get ready for a going away party. Deal part two anyone not in power/position/income will resent being asked to go beyond the basics.

But To Eddie's plight I wish I had a solution, I don't. And it sucks the green weiner.

EvB


onan


Marc.Knight

Quote from: Eddie Coyle on April 25, 2011, 10:20:46 AM
         Looking for work in the Boston area, I was turned down for about 8 jobs "That Americans don't do" with a not too subtle hint from 5 of them, that I wouldn't be hired because I was over-educated and well...WHITE. These employers basically hire only Latin Americans, non-unionized and not likely to be there for more than a year...

       Yeah, that white privilege is such a fucking gift.






I am a white male with French ancestry. 


Let's see now, in my lifetime (45 years) I have been denied work and in several cases housing because of the following reasons:



       I was not gay.
    I did not speak Spanish.
    I was not a woman.
    I was not a lesbian woman.
    I had a college degree.
    My graduate degree was a "red flag" for them so they denied my application.
    They wanted a Hispanic in the position for racial percentages, so caucasians were completely excluded.
    I could go on and on and on......


hmmmm.  sounds like prejudice or discrimination to me.

onan

Quote from: anagrammy on April 25, 2011, 11:03:01 AM
I started this thread to gather an interesting discussion developing in the corners of the Linda Moulton Howe area.  I have recently taken a class on white privilege and reverse racism, which is really self-imposed segregation, to understand some peculiar goings on I saw here in Oakland. 

First off, I noticed that the black gay guy who had the same job I did (and was there before I was) was making half of what I was making.  I only learned that because they added payroll to my duties.  I decided that the company policy forbidding employees to talk about their salaries was obviously to conceal their unfair compensation practices.  So I told him to go ask for a raise and told him exactly what to say (since I used to work in employment law),

"I would like to have a raise in pay so that my compensation matches the white woman you hired who does the same job."  Bingo.  He is very talented and when I left, he was making more than I was!  So...how was it he started out running errands and sweeping the parking lot when he had all this ability?  Because being gay AND black is two strikes against you, he told me, and he was desperate. He said he thought he would start doing what the boss thought he could do (tote that bale) and then hopefully have a chance to show the boss he could use his brain.  I asked him how long he had been using this strategy (which I thought is a racism workaround).  He said, "My whole life."

I would like to hear other people's stories of racism and reverse racism.  We just don't hear about what's happening in the workplace because it doesn't make the news unless it ends in a murder or a lawsuit.

Anagrammy

I am not sure that is racism. It may well be, but lemme tell ya a story. Many, Many years ago I managed a reprographics business we had lots of employees. One day I went into my bosses office and without much forthought I said we should give several of the employees raises. Our profits were very good and we had several multi-year contracts with some rather financially strong customers.

My boss looked at me like I was crazy. He stated this simple personal principle: "I only give raises when an employee comes to me and asks. If they don't ask they must be happy with what they are earning.

I thought he was miserly... did I mention he was the boss.

But I do fully believe there is racism out there and maybe, mostly because I live in the south.

b_dubb

how did not being gay affect your ability to land a job?  i'm dying to find out

The General

The fact that we even have a discussion about "whether there is racism or not" should tell you a lot right there.  If it's so subtle that we can't even see it, or barely notice it, then it's not enough of a problem to worry about anymore. 

You wanna see civil rights abuses look at China or Saudi Arabia or Iran. 
People have it really good here, and the playing field is level already.
We have a black president, if that means anything to you.

Eddie Coyle



     The term "reverse racism" is mindless cant. It's implicit that racism comes only from one source. Like "white privilege", suggesting ALL WHITES are living the same existence. In the eyes of the "white privilege" lunatics, I'm better off/given more opportunity than Oprah,Michael Jordan and Obama.

  Yes, Racism exists...it's human nature. Tribalism exists, etc. People were not made to get along. Things like racial,religious differences only add more fuel to the fire. Like the old saying goes.."man is a wolf to man"

EvB

Quote from: The General on April 25, 2011, 11:42:28 AM

We have a black president, if that means anything to you.


the problem is that all kinds of discrimination (I use that word to include all the
"isms" - and avoid the "reverse racism" term which i agree make for difficult communication) once apparently "healed" can relapse so fast without a certain amount of vigilance.  I agree that in many cases the intense hostility is a bit old.  A simple "um, hang on a sec, are you suggesting that . . .?" in a polite and open tone that invites honest reflection is usually enough.

Let's face it, while the isms, though less socially acceptable in many areas, are still there - sometimes simmering under the surface and ready to erupt, claiming discrimination is a multi-edged weapon.

the Victum: "they dumped me cuz I'm X"

the Reply: "or, maybe you're just an incompetent ass"

Maybe - maybe not.  Once again these individual situations are usually nuanced in ways that become very hard to discern the roots of.  And, the lawyers don't help. 

We can legislate all we want, but we will never be able to legislate our way to true justice or human decency.  That takes time, and often generations of practice.

Marc.Knight

Quote from: b_dubb on April 25, 2011, 11:29:46 AM
how did not being gay affect your ability to land a job?  i'm dying to find out

...actually a job and an apartment. 

This particular business wanted to keep their circle of middle managers a certain sexual persuasion.  Nothing against it, just not into it.  I also had something similar happen at a private social welfare agency I applied to.

I applied to rent a room in a large apartment rented by 2 gay men.  They openly asked if I was gay, and said they would really prefer having someone gay rent the room.  As much as I needed the room at that moment, I politely informed them that I was not gay.

I don't have anymosity about this, but these things happen every day.

If I woke up one day and turned on the television to see "White Entertainment Television (WET)" or flipped the channel see a news story about the "The (White) Race" protest group marching downtown, or flip the channel again and watch a speech given by the head of the National Association for the Advancement of White People (NAAWP)... I would be appalled.  I'm not saying that all elements of "BET"; "La Rasa" and the NAACP are racist, but we have a long way to go to truly experience racial harmony from all sides. 

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