Please say this isn't so..please.

[FightTheFuture]

How can anyone, anyone, argue that Europe wouldn't be on the brink of collapse if only there had been more government control? That's almost as good, and as literally fantastic, as saying, "True Communism has never been tried."

But I'm sure repeating those mantra will be of great comfort in the ruins.

But that`s the rub; history has taught us that there will always be those folks to come along that think they can make communism work. They are the ones able to swim majestically upstream against a tidal wave of human nature.

[11angeleyes11]

There are no coincidences.  This was the first thread I clicked on and read posts.  I am reading "Paper Promises - Debt, Money and the New World Order" by Philip Cogan.  He touches on some of these topics in the book.  It is very economically based, but looks at the global economy after the demise of Bretton Woods agreement in the early 70's.  The focus is on the spending bubbles, but it also provides a readable historic base for the economics.  I just felt a bonding with your posts and some of the concepts from a book I just put down for awhile. 
Post on. . 

[Yorkshire pud]

How can anyone, anyone, argue that Europe wouldn't be on the brink of collapse if only there had been more government control? That's almost as good, and as literally fantastic, as saying, "True Communism has never been tried."

But I'm sure repeating those mantra will be of great comfort in the ruins.

I think I made my position clear on what I thought of the EU?


However presumably if we'd had more bankers, corporations and individuals tax avoiding, taking subsidies and ripping an even bigger one out of the countries concerned  we'd be better off? Oh hang on, no.


Cyprus is in the state it is because in recent years it sold itself as a tax haven. It had to 'be' something because it's main trade is tourism, has no exports, makes nothing, and wanted desperately to be in the EU club.  Russian oligarchs especially riding on the wave of their corrupt taking over of the old Soviet oil and gas industries (that belonged to the country) availed themselves of the new found haven (it's warm too, so nice for those winter vacations), and paid jack shit into it's economy.


Those chickens are now coming to roost; Germany has had enough (which is understandable, as any bail out that will rescue Cyprus is largely going to be underwritten by Germany). What the EU has clumsily done is demand up to a 20% levy on all deposits in Cyprus to part fund the bail out; This will hurt everyone though, not the Oligarchs who took their funds out last week before the official announcement, surely some coincidence. Today is the deadline..if it fails, Cyprus will relinquish the Euro and go back to it's old currency that will be less than worthless, then it gets bad..really bad.


This is pretty far removed though from some idiot in government believing the world was made in 6 days...but hey ho.

[Yorkshire pud]

But that`s the rub; history has taught us that there will always be those folks to come along that think they can make communism work. They are the ones able to swim majestically upstream against a tidal wave of human nature.

All things started with an idea, or a need that formed an idea. Political persuasions are no different. Although its anathema to want to believe it, the 'right' of the spectrum have far more in common with communism than they might wish to believe. People power, small administration and people making the decisions that they live by, for the good of all..  Not as it is where an elected individual then has the post of numero uno until they're re-elected or supplanted; but until then, officiates in passing legislature that those who put them there obey. So the civilians are the servants in some ways...
There is no evidence whatsoever that any accepted political model in use today is demonstrably good long term for any society that is equitable to all within it. Do you know how long a 'civilised' society would go to primitive with primitive needs after a major food shortage and /or power loss? Conservative (small c) estimates are three to five days.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Now, indulge me on this: I've asked several people and even in these environs, but whereas in the UK, politics and religion don't EVER mix, it seems compulsory in the USA you can't be in politics and taken seriously unless you also speak to your deity or he/she speaks too you.. Why is that?...

Earlier I suggested it's usually just for show, a Bible tucked under an arm on the way to church, a piece of scripture recited in a campaign speech or when speaking in favor or opposition to legislation.  They don't mean any of it.

Here are a few other examples:  Campaigning in the first caucus, Iowa, and a few other places, they all turn into bird hunters complete with full camouflage gear and shotguns.  They aren't really hunting enthusiasts.  Around the country they eat breakfests at greasy truck stops, or stop at places called 'Eats' for coffee and doughnuts.  They don't really ever eat at places like that when they aren't campaigning.

Or how about Obama being photographed skeet shooting at Camp David a few weeks ago when the gun grabbing was at fever pitch - just to show us he isn't really anti-gun.  I doubt he ever even shot one before.  Although he may start now that he found out it's fun.

I'm guessing your politicians also do photo ops and sprinkle comments into their speeches attempting to resonate with voters there?

[attachimg=1]

[Yorkshire pud]

Earlier I suggested it's usually just for show, a Bible tucked under an arm on the way to church, a piece of scripture recited in a campaign speech or when speaking in favor or opposition to legislation.  They don't mean any of it.

Here are a few other examples:  Campaigning in the first caucus, Iowa, and a few other places, they all turn into bird hunters complete with full camouflage gear and shotguns.  They aren't really hunting enthusiasts.  Around the country they eat breakfests at greasy truck stops, or stop at places called 'Eats' for coffee and doughnuts.  They don't really ever eat at places like that when they aren't campaigning.

Or how about Obama being photographed skeet shooting at Camp David a few weeks ago when the gun grabbing was at fever pitch - just to show us he isn't really anti-gun.  I doubt he ever even shot one before.  Although he may start now that he found out it's fun.

I'm guessing your politicians also do photo ops and sprinkle comments into their speeches attempting to resonate with voters there?

[attachimg=1]

Absolutely! Patting babies on the head and being down wid da kids, is de rigueur over here too.. What I'm referring to is the religious thing. You're not convinced by it, and as you say, you're not the only one; so why if many/most/all think it's total mendacious bull, do a) people accept it and still vote for them, and b) why doo they still do it, if they know everyone knows it's bull? As I said, in the UK, religion in politics is the vice that dare not speak it's name; it's kept very private and any politician directly questioned about their faith will quickly have it steered in another direction. I just wanted to why and how the differences evolved.

[Juan]

I don't know about other countries, or even other parts of this country, but in the Southeastern US, there are lots and lots of new "non-denominational" churches.  They are begun by someone who believes himself called by God to preach.  Such a person may or may not have any academic qualifications - just the calling.  Because these churches don't belong to any denomination, they lack the viewpoint of a consistent doctrine - Anglican, Calvinist, Catholic, etc.
 
These new churches attract congregants, IMHO, in several major ways - 1. The are all "faith-based" churches not "works-based" meaning one doesn't have to do anything except "believe," 2. They promise good results - some even promise success and wealth on earth.  There's no concentration on hell for sinners, 3. The churches concentrate on growing into mega-churches, thus they provide congregants with social functions and a large social group.

Judaism advocated a Young Earth, but this was not universally accepted in Christianity.  During the scientific discoveries of the 18th and 19th centuries, the Young Earth theories fell more and more out of favor.  But in the 20th century, with the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity and the rise of non-denomination churches with their lack of enforced doctrine, the idea has revived.

[analog kid]

Judaism advocated a Young Earth, but this was not universally accepted in Christianity.  During the scientific discoveries of the 18th and 19th centuries, the Young Earth theories fell more and more out of favor.  But in the 20th century, with the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity and the rise of non-denomination churches with their lack of enforced doctrine, the idea has revived.

Kind of like the idea of The Rapture. It originated in the 1800s from an English woman who had a dream while ill. A missionary brought it here and it caught on with the snake handler types. Everyone else thought it was ridiculous, no biblical precedent, etc.. Until recent years that it's become an almost universal belief among Baptists and Protestants and the subject of all kinds of shitty bestsellers. Every Christian I know believes in it. All it takes for a greater acceptance of a doctrine is time.

I listened to an Art Bell episode from the 90s when he and his guest, who was there for a religious topic of some kind, had never heard of 6,000-year-old young earth creationism. It's a lot more common belief these days.

[ziznak]

At the same time... it's quite unnerving to think of what the global intelligence level is at this point in time... was reading some shit about this modern age and our use of memory.... with smart phones and computers we've adjusted our minds to forget things that we think can be readily looked up... WITH AN INTERNET connection.  Now, mentally we are sorting information that we need to actually think about with information we can readily find... in the end I think it's going to make us stupider AND smart at the same time depending on the conditions.... if yer a fucking idiot then you don't retain shit... you read stuff, spout it out, and that's it... if you really THINK about shit tho... then even if you're a slave idiot smart phone cyborg you'll at least retain the bullshit you just looked up about midgets and penis size... so.. it's conceivably possibly that Jorch could get smarter.... with the internet... and a smartphone... and treatment for his retardation... and maybe a beheading... ah i could go on and on.

[somatichypermutation]

How can anyone, anyone, argue that Europe wouldn't be on the brink of collapse if only there had been more government control? That's almost as good, and as literally fantastic, as saying, "True Communism has never been tried."

But I'm sure repeating those mantra will be of great comfort in the ruins.

A bit of banking regulation would have been nice, on both sides of the Atlantic.

[analog kid]

A bit of banking regulation would have been nice, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Tax cuts for the rich and deregulation is the ultimate panacea for all economic problems. Anything else is communism. Or one of those isms. Possibly a combination of all of them.