The crime of being an unmarried mother

[SciFiAuthor]

Don't bother Yorkie. He's an apologist. It won't matter when Francis personally addresses the wrong. It'll always be an 'alleged' wrong because like doubting Thomas, some people won't believe until they can dip their hands directly into the wounds and that will never happen as they're comfortably removed from the action.

When you have Yorkie claiming starvation and then you go to the article and it states malnutrition, but otherwise good condition, it's easy to look like an apologist when you point out the inconsistency of the claim. But I'm not an apologist, I'm someone interested in the actual factual truth, and this shit doesn't hold up. The diphtheria vaccination proves that, there was no infrastructure to approve or trial drugs in Ireland like we have today. Instead you followed the journalist's lead and bought the conclusion he or she wanted you to buy: it is somehow wrong to administer a diphtheria vaccination before it is offered for sale. You only buy into the narrative because you're biased on the issue.

I don't have a monopoly on Catholicism. That's an illogical line of thinking. It's a religion, not a commodity, and one I don't hate contrary to the tiresome stereotype you just threw out. What I do have authority to speak about, based on direct immediate personal experience,  is the way in which the hierarchy treats people, particularly women, and that experience goes well  beyond an parochial school education and a cultural upbringing. But, the tactic of attacking the person's credibility and not the point, is noted. "Accusation, sensationalism and claims" is pretty much what was said by the apologists when the Boston Globe published the first articles on priest abuse and yet, now it's generally understood that they were right in exposing the abuse and cover ups, unpalatable as it might be to some. The same is true for this latest scandal.

You were the one holding up the Catholic background and flailing it around. I have the same background, and I didn't see any of the shit you're claiming. Karl didn't either. Now, I might see issues if I were biased and had my personal politics motivating me, but I don't in this case. I simply want to know the truth. Pedophilia is not a doctrine of the Catholic Faith, chastity is. The pedophilia issue is a phenomenon of the Catholic clergy system being an ideal hiding place for pedophiles. The fact that a tenet of Catholicism is unconditional forgiveness compounds the problem. When Benedict XVI attempted to close the loophole by saying no gay priests--which would solve the vast majority of the problem--you guys bitched because it conflicted with your liberal sensibilities. Well, that tells me that you really just want a liberal Catholic Church that conforms to your currently fashionable politics and you guys will coerce it to achieve that goal. I don't like ideological coercion, and I really don't like it when I go through a media article and see it written like a fiction novel in order to lead people along. That's definitely what I saw in those articles on the Home. I'd be happy to go through one, sentence by sentence, and show you exactly how reporters use the literary techniques of novelists to goatherd people to unsupportable conclusions like Yorkie's starvation claim. I guarantee that you'll never look at any news article in quite the same way again.

[Yorkshire pud]

Starvation never occurred. Malnutrition was reported, but in the same report the children were deemed to be in generally good condition. Sounds like Ireland of the early to mid 20th century to me. Malnutrition and starvation are not the same thing, so stop concocting it.

There was no need for any malnutrition. The nunnery was financially better off than most of the rest of the Irish population. Why do you have to be so obtuse? 

Michael Higgins is Labour, of course he's going to comment like that. I see no justification for anything, Ireland was a third world country living in subsistence conditions that prompted it to both revolt from the UK, flood the US with immigrants and experience periods of disease and starvation for over a century. It's the same story from the Potato Famine all the way through the mid 20th century.  Don't be led by the media, go through these articles and ask "How do they know that?" "What's the source of this?" and you'll see they fail badly.

Up until the 1960's? How come you have access to hitherto unreleased information that hasn't been released yet, even by the Church? You must be very well connected.

Untrue, the Roman Catholic Church is to this day a state-funded official religion in France, one of six.

France is a secular country..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State

The deep roots of French secularism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3325285.stm

Italy wasn't a secular state until 1872, and previous to 1872 the Papal states were actually rather lax for Europe, allowing both gambling and prostitution under the pretense that people have free will; they will either sin, or they won't. More, it is against Catholic doctrine to turn someone out of your house for getting knocked up, you are to be compassionate, not cold and that's why it wasn't happening in any other catholic country.

And? we're in agreement then, Italy is secular. So is France...Ireland isn't,,which is what I said..Stick to Si-Fi, you don't need facts for that.

Let's drop the pretenses. You're an extreme leftist that dislikes the church because the church dislikes abortion.

Wrong. I dislike any indoctrination. Be it religious, political, or cult. Makes no difference if the church agrees with abortion or not; They won't stop it, what has and does happen though, is their intolerance of unmarried mothers, has forced girls to die either intentionally because of suicide or unintentionally after a visit to 'Aunt Mary' who used a coat hanger. The alternative was this nunnery where they were treated like dirt. They've only just got around to allowing rape victims to have abortions in Ireland. You think that's humane to hitherto force a victim to carry full term a foetus from rape?

You're willing to buy into anything, and even misrepresent, the Catholic church to get abortion going in full swing in Ireland. You're willing to use these dead children (but not the million+ the UK starved to death during the famine, that was ok, merely population control) to remove the RCC from Irish politics so you can legally kill more children. That is the end result of what you advocate: a new round of dead children. Maybe the Irish can use them for soylent heating like they do in the UK.

Then start a thread on the famine; I suggest Karl do it, but he didn't. Why don't you? This thread is about the nunnery where the skeletons have been discovered.

I'm fine with removing the church from politics, actually I encourage removing it, but let's not all lie about it and pull this stupid bullshit where we pretend we're outraged about one thing, just to accomplish a peripheral goal. You want the church out of Irish politics. Just say that, instead of concocting unsupportable bullshit from media articles and playing games with everyone.

In a perfect world I'd eradicate all religions. Either entwined in politics or not, not just in Ireland. All over the planet. 

[onan]

Until recently, illegitimacy bore a great stigma in the Catholic Church. Having a child outside wedlock was considered a sign of depravity, and the child was believed to be tainted by that depravity. In the 11th Century, Pope Urban II prohibited any man who was born outside wedlock from entering holy orders. Illegitimacy was considered a "defect of birth." Without a special dispensation, men who were born illegitimately were barred from the priesthood, the diaconate and religious orders. This policy continued into the early 20th Century.

http://people.opposingviews.com/children-out-wedlock-catholic-church-4418.html

Today the Catholic Church affords children who are born out of wedlock the same rights as any other child. According to "The Family and Human Rights," issued by the Pontifical Council for the Family, "All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, enjoy the same right to social protection, with a view to their integral personal development." The 1999 Code of Canon Law does not mandate legitimacy as a qualification for ordination, and it does not place any penalties or restrictions on illegitimate children.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

I wonder about all the souls who spent several hundred years in limbo before the Church decided it doesn't exist.  That had to be confusing as hell for them.

[bigchucka]

Until recently, illegitimacy bore a great stigma in the Catholic Church. Having a child outside wedlock was considered a sign of depravity, and the child was believed to be tainted by that depravity. In the 11th Century, Pope Urban II prohibited any man who was born outside wedlock from entering holy orders. Illegitimacy was considered a "defect of birth." Without a special dispensation, men who were born illegitimately were barred from the priesthood, the diaconate and religious orders. This policy continued into the early 20th Century.

We need a Pope that is from the middle of nowhere.  Pope Rural.

[albrecht]

Until recently, illegitimacy bore a great stigma in the Catholic Church. 
Today the Catholic Church affords children who are born out of wedlock the same rights as any other child. According to "The Family and Human Rights," issued by the Pontifical Council for the Family, "All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, enjoy the same right to social protection, with a view to their integral personal development." The 1999 Code of Canon Law does not mandate legitimacy as a qualification for ordination, and it does not place any penalties or restrictions on illegitimate children.

Good they changed that. It seems wrong to judge the child since it is not their fault if their mom was a slut (that's a good word now since it has been "reclaimed"), dad took off, parents abandoned them, or were a product of rape/abuse. Obviously I'm not a Catholic so unsure of their precise doctrine and views but if they also accept "original sin" why would a child who, through no action of their own, is a bastard be more evil (or whatever) than anybody else when born? Even a mean baby?

[Quick Karl]

One could write a book that would never end if they were obsessed with all of the wrongs HUMANS have committed against other HUMANS in the past, that have been corrected as time marched forward.

I wouldn't buy the book.

The problem is when a handful of people that have done nothing but sit in chairs and complain about the wrongs of the past, and unwaveringly lay blame for same on the shoulders of their philosophical enemies, and believe they have all of the only correct solutions for any and every societal wrong, get all antsy when they blurt out a proclamation, and someone has the nerve to dare to question the wisdom of the whim, or dares to present a valid countering argument, or fails to collapse in utter astonishment and implement the whim, immediately...

Here endith the lesson.

[onan]

oh the irony.

[Quick Karl]

You're welcome.

[SciFiAuthor]

There was no need for any malnutrition. The nunnery was financially better off than most of the rest of the Irish population. Why do you have to be so obtuse? 

Actually, all we know is that they were receiving money. We don't know how many people they were taking care of with that money, what treatments for the reported diseases were being bought, how the money was budgeted etc.

Up until the 1960's? How come you have access to hitherto unreleased information that hasn't been released yet, even by the Church? You must be very well connected.

No, I just bother to read things like Irish history and ensure that I'm in the know. If I'm not, then I don't post an opinion on a subject. Ireland was dirt poor well into modern times. That's no secret, it's history. Though, since Britain caused it, I guess they probably aren't teaching that part of history in the schools there.

France is a secular country..

Not in the sense it is in any other secular country. Every church and synagogue in France built before 1905 are state owned and publically funded. In other words, the Catholic Church, which has exclusive rights to the use of Notre Dame de Paris, receives full public funding for it's upkeep. This has left questions among the non-members of the six recognized religions, notably muslims, wondering why they aren't getting any cash to paint the mosque. Follow your Wikipedia link to the bottom.

And? we're in agreement then, Italy is secular. So is France...Ireland isn't,,which is what I said..Stick to Si-Fi, you don't need facts for that.

Italy actually got worse when it went secular. Mussolini, the degradation of Southern Italy into a crime-ridden corrupt shithole, etc. But I like secular government, sure. The difference is that I'm not willing to accomplish it mob-style based on half-truths, probable misrepresentations, and driven by my own distaste for religion. I support secular government simply because it's a better idea, but if religious government were a better idea, I'd go that way. The best idea always wins with me.

Wrong. I dislike any indoctrination. Be it religious, political, or cult. Makes no difference if the church agrees with abortion or not; They won't stop it, what has and does happen though, is their intolerance of unmarried mothers, has forced girls to die either intentionally because of suicide or unintentionally after a visit to 'Aunt Mary' who used a coat hanger. The alternative was this nunnery where they were treated like dirt. They've only just got around to allowing rape victims to have abortions in Ireland. You think that's humane to hitherto force a victim to carry full term a foetus from rape?

That was Irish culture. It's no stretch to see that catholic doctrine forbids you from tossing your prego daughter out in the cold. The Irish simply got it wrong. They got a lot of things wrong, look at the IRA and the troubles.

As to carrying a rape pregnancy to term, I'd be fine to abort it early, before it becomes, as Onan argues, sentient. I am not anti-abortion per se, I simply don't like the ambiguity that currently surrounds it. Words like "choice" or "special right" don't resonate well with me because it implies society making a preferential decision between the rights of two beings. That's not equal rights, that's extending a special right to end a life to a person solely based on their sex. This is evidenced by how the court system, at least in the US, will charge a wife beater with manslaughter, or even murder, for ending a pregnancy with a punch. In that case, a fetus is legally a person. But in an abortion, it legally is not. Consistency is key to protecting people's rights, and abortion law simply is not consistent.

Then start a thread on the famine; I suggest Karl do it, but he didn't. Why don't you? This thread is about the nunnery where the skeletons have been discovered.

This is an after effect of the famine. The famine created the Ireland in which this was happening.

In a perfect world I'd eradicate all religions. Either entwined in politics or not, not just in Ireland. All over the planet.

Here's what happens when you eradicate all religions: everyone makes up new ones. Or they begin to treat the state or an ideology as a religion, as the communists tried to do and also Hitler with his Aryan worship, and the left does today with its ideology. I think religion can be helpful in some cases, but not in others, and it's certainly not for me. But it would be naïve to think the world would be better off without it. Think about it, go talk to a fundamentalist Christian raving away and imagine what that person would be doing if they were secular and didn't have all those layers of religious restraints holding back the whack job within.

[Quick Karl]

I love reading your posts, SciFi.

[Yorkshire pud]

The problem is when a handful of people that have done nothing but sit in chairs and complain about the wrongs of the past, and unwaveringly lay blame for same on the shoulders of their philosophical enemies, and believe they have all of the only correct solutions for any and every societal wrong, get all antsy when they blurt out a proclamation, and someone has the nerve to dare to question the wisdom of the whim, or dares to present a valid countering argument, or fails to collapse in utter astonishment and implement the whim, immediately...

Here endith the lesson.

Is this the first paragraph of your ghost written autobiography? You could get your editor to put in pontificate instead of complain, but it's not a bad first draft at your self assessment.

[SciFiAuthor]

I love reading your posts, SciFi.

Likewise, you're a decent thinker that doesn't get any credit.

[Yorkshire pud]

Likewise, you're a decent thinker that doesn't get any credit for it.

I wish you'd warn me before typing stuff like that. I spat out my coffee. 'Decent thinker' and Qunt is an oxymoron. Maybe you two should get a room? Get some notes from each other.

[SciFiAuthor]

I wish you'd warn me before typing stuff like that. I spat out my coffee. 'Decent thinker' and Qunt is an oxymoron. Maybe you two should get a room? Get some notes from each other.

Nah, Karl's just concerned for the future of the world and his country. He should be, we're sitting here in the US watching this ridiculous Mexican border farce, Iraq's falling like Saigon, Putin's sitting in Ukraine wondering where to expand next, and not one fucking leader on the planet is getting it right as to how to deal with it all. The world is turning into a place where the inmates run the asylum again, it's 1932 all over, and unhelpful diversions like this Irish Catholicism thing which is a comparatively minor leftwing political ploy are obscuring the fact that the planet is falling apart.

[Yorkshire pud]

Actually, all we know is that they were receiving money. We don't know how many people they were taking care of with that money, what treatments for the reported diseases were being bought, how the money was budgeted etc.

No, I just bother to read things like Irish history and ensure that I'm in the know. If I'm not, then I don't post an opinion on a subject. Ireland was dirt poor well into modern times. That's no secret, it's history. Though, since Britain caused it, I guess they probably aren't teaching that part of history in the schools there.

You're not that much in the know it seems. Britain caused the mass burial of ill and malnourished children by the nuns of a nunnery who didn't have the notion of charity and compassion in their remit? I see.

Not in the sense it is in any other secular country.

It is or it isn't secular. France is.

Every church and synagogue in France built before 1905 are state owned and publically funded. In other words, the Catholic Church, which has exclusive rights to the use of Notre Dame de Paris, receives full public funding for it's upkeep. This has left questions among the non-members of the six recognized religions, notably muslims, wondering why they aren't getting any cash to paint the mosque. Follow your Wikipedia link to the bottom.

You're struggling with this aren't you? France is secular. But it's really irrelevant as we're talking about Ireland.

Italy actually got worse when it went secular. Mussolini, the degradation of Southern Italy into a crime-ridden corrupt shithole, etc. But I like secular government, sure. The difference is that I'm not willing to accomplish it mob-style based on half-truths, probable misrepresentations, and driven by my own distaste for religion. I support secular government simply because it's a better idea, but if religious government were a better idea, I'd go that way. The best idea always wins with me.

Hmmm, but Ireland wasn't and isn't secular. Neither is Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, but again, irrelevant, because we're discussing Ireland.

That was Irish culture. It's no stretch to see that catholic doctrine forbids you from tossing your prego daughter out in the cold. The Irish simply got it wrong. They got a lot of things wrong, look at the IRA and the troubles.

Yep, they got this wrong too. But it was no accident. It was systematic neglect and the view that unmarried mothers but more importantly their children as being less than the wider community because they were born out of wedlock, and no other reason. You ought to see the movie Philomena that shows how these things work when the Catholics come down on unmarried mothers. Her son was lucky I suppose, he wasn't neglected but forced to be adopted.

Based on the 2009 investigative book by BBC correspondent Martin Sixsmith, The Lost Child of Philomena Lee, PHILOMENA focuses on the efforts of Philomena Lee, mother to a boy conceived out of wedlock - something her Irish-Catholic community didn't have the highest opinion of - and given away for adoption in the United States. In following church doctrine, she was forced to sign a contract that wouldn't allow for any sort of inquiry into the son's whereabouts. After starting a family years later in England and, for the most part, moving on with her life, Lee meets Sixsmith, a BBC reporter with whom she decides to discover her long-lost son.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2431286/

As to carrying a rape pregnancy to term, I'd be fine to abort it early, before it becomes, as Onan argues, sentient.

How magnanimous of you! Not that your opinion matters, being as you're not a woman.

I am not anti-abortion per se, I simply don't like the ambiguity that currently surrounds it. Words like "choice" or "special right" don't resonate well with me because it implies society making a preferential decision between the rights of two beings. That's not equal rights, that's extending a special right to end a life to a person solely based on their sex. This is evidenced by how the court system, at least in the US, will charge a wife beater with manslaughter, or even murder, for ending a pregnancy with a punch. In that case, a fetus is legally a person. But in an abortion, it legally is not. Consistency is key to protecting people's rights, and abortion law simply is not consistent.

Society has decided that a woam should have the option. She doesn't need to get your or my permission to terminate within the constraints of the laws set down. Law or no law though, if she really saw no way out she'd have it aborted and probably get herself killed in the process. The law allows her to take that choice in a safe environment...except in Ireland of course..Guess what? They still have abortions, they just get on a ferry from Dublin and get off in Liverpool instead.

This is an after effect of the famine. The famine created the Ireland in which this was happening.

No it didn't. Throwing dead children unceremoniously into a pit isn't anything to do with a famine. The famine didn't exist between 1928 and 1960.

Here's what happens when you eradicate all religions: everyone makes up new ones.

Eradication means that... as in none.

Or they begin to treat the state or an ideology as a religion, as the communists tried to do and also Hitler with his Aryan worship, and the left does today with its ideology. I think religion can be helpful in some cases, but not in others, and it's certainly not for me. But it would be naïve to think the world would be better off without it. Think about it, go talk to a fundamentalist Christian raving away and imagine what that person would be doing if they were secular and didn't have all those layers of religious restraints holding back the whack job within.

People believe whatever they wish; I draw the line at organised religion, especially where it forms indoctrination. Be it Catholicism, Islam, Jedi, Voodoo or the Moonies.

[Yorkshire pud]

Nah, Karl's just concerned for the future of the world and his country.

Bullshit. He's just a pontificating arseole who sits all day looking up links to try and support what he already thinks (and I use that advisedly) is true. He makes the 'facts' fit the policy he's trying to project.

He should be, we're sitting here in the US watching this ridiculous Mexican border farce, Iraq's falling like Saigon, Putin's sitting in Ukraine wondering where to expand next, and not one fucking leader on the planet is getting it right as to how to deal with it all. The world is turning into a place where the inmates run the asylum again, it's 1932 all over, and unhelpful diversions like this Irish Catholicism thing which is a comparatively minor leftwing political ploy are obscuring the fact that the planet is falling apart.

He's so concerned he didn't go to the American spring demo he had opened a thread about..He wasn't alone of course, hardly anyone else did. You really think him typing bollox on here makes any difference at all to anyone? Really? Then you say you like what he has to say; what about following him when he stands outside the Whitehouse on his lectern preaching to the masses about how he thinks the US is going to hell in a handcart.. Here's a tip: You'll have a wait on your hands.

[SciFiAuthor]

You're not that much in the know it seems. Britain caused the mass burial of ill and malnourished children by the nuns of a nunnery who didn't have the notion of charity and compassion in their remit? I see.

Yep, your government made the decision to not relieve Ireland of the famine it underwent from 1845-52, causing a million deaths and a million immigrations leaving the country unable to recover economically. It created the conditions of revolution, which occurred in 1921, and as with all post-revolution countries recovery is tough when you've got the British Empire out fucking with your trade out of spite. That created the conditions of Ireland during the period of this incidence. As far as a lack of compassion and charity, um, it was a home for women affected by the cultural problem of unwed pregnancy. What the fuck do you think a notion of charity is? You want to make this into a bunch of Frankenstein nuns wandering the halls happily whipping people, but that's not how the real world works. Pull your brain out of your ass and apply a little reasoning. Wait for the official investigations to produce a report. Don't settle for some article by a journalist that wants to lead you on with a sensationalist narrative hoping you'll yell "Fuck Yes!" just because you like the content. Trust me on this, this whole thing will look less sensational and less shocking a year or two after the proper investigation is done. It always does. Don't believe me? Watch Bush and Blair trying to sell Iraq back in the day on Youtube. Um, they were sensationalizing, and now we know that we were being bullshitted. Well, you claim to be against indoctrination, so back it up and ask some fucking questions about this Ireland shit, please.

I is or it isn't secular. France is.
You're struggling with this aren't you? France is secular. But it's really irrelevant as we're talking about Ireland.

I'm making my point; they provide rent-free, maintenance-free properties for six religions. France was every bit a Catholic country as Ireland. You tried to make the argument that Catholicism worldwide was tossing out its unwed mothers. It wasn't. That was Ireland. You wanted to paint that practice as official catholic policy, and connect it together because you hate Catholicism, but it's a dirty fucking lie and you're being a dirty fucking liar if you don't see the disconnect between a cultural problem and a response to a cultural problem. It was Irish cultural policy to toss those women out and this home was a catholic charity to combat it. Don't sit here and tell me lies to support your own anti-fucking-religionism. It's not going to work, so let's analyze the Home truthfully and say to each other "Oh, you know, what the reporter said doesn't seem to make sense" and find some goddamn truth instead of bicker over political fucking garbage. Deal? But were going to have to be honest with each other, and I'll be flat out honest with you, I don't think you are capable of being honest with yourself. I think the ideas you've been fed about women's rights, the indoctrination, will trump anything I say. 

Hmmm, but Ireland wasn't and isn't secular. Neither is Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, but again, irrelevant, because we're discussing Ireland.

Yes, but notice that Saudi Arabia is a hell of a place to live if you're a native and buy into the local religion. Kuwait's even better. Better than we have it in our countries, the Kuwaitis get a fucking check from their government instead of a tax form. Well, you know, sometimes ideas that don't conform to ideological paradigms can work better than those that do. The key is not to be so beholden to your own political paradigm as to be unable to see it. Ireland pulled itself out of the shitter with that Catholic-influenced political landscape to become, for a time, the diamond in the crown of the EU as far as economics. And it did it unconventionally, not relying on it's resources, but rather to invite business in and make itself attractive. The bottom fell out when it stopped and started thinking like standard labor parties do. Well, maybe you should take notice of that.

Yep, they got this wrong too. But it was no accident. It was systematic neglect and the view that unmarried mothers but more importantly their children as being less than the wider community because they were born out of wedlock, and no other reason. You ought to see the movie Philomena that shows how these things work when the Catholics come down on unmarried mothers. Her son was lucky I suppose, he wasn't neglected but forced to be adopted.

Yes, every nun in that institution was a mindless zombie bent on oppressing the inmates and torturing them. It was a concerted effort befitting of a cheap BDSM porno and surely no compassion was EVER shown. Quit thinking so fucking simplistically.

How magnanimous of you! Not that your opinion matters, being as you're not a woman.

Everyone's opinion matters. Women suck at playing guitar. They absolutely suck except in a few rare instances. Don't believe me? Youtube all of the most successful bands in history and take a look. Testosterone makes for powerful electric guitar playing. Well, by your reasoning women shouldn't be able to give opinions on whether a guitarist sucks or not. Your reasoning is fucked. You want to hand out special rights, which means you are not for equal rights.

No it didn't. Throwing dead children unceremoniously into a pit isn't anything to do with a famine. The famine didn't exist between 1928 and 1960.

You don't know that it was unceremonious. Nor do you know that it was anything different than was going on in much of the world. Are you so insular as to think that past disposal of human bodies isn't sometimes disturbing to modern sensibilities?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary#mediaviewer/File:Kostnice_Sedlec.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_della_Concezione_dei_Cappuccini#mediaviewer/File:Rom,_Santa_Maria_Immacolata_a_Via_Veneto,_Krypta_der_Kapuziner_1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris#mediaviewer/File:Catacombs-700px.jpg

And again, seriously? You're burning body parts to heat a hospital and you're going to act indignant about body disposal?

People believe whatever they wish; I draw the line at organised religion, especially where it forms indoctrination. Be it Catholicism, Islam, Jedi, Voodoo or the Moonies.

Yes, but the problem is you've bought into the new indoctrination. You're trying to say that males can't comment on the issues of women (but noticeably not the opposite) for Christ's sake. What the fuck do you think indoctrination looks like?

Let's explore it if you have the balls. Give me an issue involving males that women are categorically not qualified to comment on. I dare you. 

[SciFiAuthor]

Bullshit. He's just a pontificating arseole who sits all day looking up links to try and support what he already thinks (and I use that advisedly) is true. He makes the 'facts' fit the policy he's trying to project.

Well, that's what you do. Actually, it's a very responsible thing to google what you read.

He's so concerned he didn't go to the American spring demo he had opened a thread about..He wasn't alone of course, hardly anyone else did. You really think him typing bollox on here makes any difference at all to anyone? Really? Then you say you like what he has to say; what about following him when he stands outside the Whitehouse on his lectern preaching to the masses about how he thinks the US is going to hell in a handcart.. Here's a tip: You'll have a wait on your hands.

Hey, Onan changed my opinion on abortion. I couldn't shoot his idea down, so I conceded and I adopted it. I might yet be convinced of his wisdom of installing a gargantuan septic tank. They must eat a whole lot of Mexican food and Buffalo Wings in that household. Just sayin'. That said, the key is to recognize good ideas when you see them. You don't. You're as indoctrinated as a starving North Korean gleefully tacking up a picture of the new Dear Leader and you don't know it.

[Yorkshire pud]

Yep, your government made the decision to not relieve Ireland of the famine it underwent from 1845-52, causing a million deaths and a million immigrations leaving the country unable to recover economically. It created the conditions of revolution, which occurred in 1921, and as with all post-revolution countries recovery is tough when you've got the British Empire out fucking with your trade out of spite. That created the conditions of Ireland during the period of this incidence. As far as a lack of compassion and charity, um, it was a home for women affected by the cultural problem of unwed pregnancy. What the fuck do you think a notion of charity is? You want to make this into a bunch of Frankenstein nuns wandering the halls happily whipping people, but that's not how the real world works. Pull your brain out of your ass and apply a little reasoning. Wait for the official investigations to produce a report. Don't settle for some article by a journalist that wants to lead you on with a sensationalist narrative hoping you'll yell "Fuck Yes!" just because you like the content. Trust me on this, this whole thing will look less sensational and less shocking a year or two after the proper investigation is done. It always does. Don't believe me? Watch Bush and Blair trying to sell Iraq back in the day on Youtube. Um, they were sensationalizing, and now we know that we were being bullshitted. Well, you claim to be against indoctrination, so back it up and ask some fucking questions about this Ireland shit, please.

It wasn't a journalist that broke the story. It's a local historian. She's done the ground work on it.

I'm making my point; they provide rent-free, maintenance-free properties for six religions. France was every bit a Catholic country as Ireland. You tried to make the argument that Catholicism worldwide was tossing out its unwed mothers. It wasn't. That was Ireland.

I never said it wasn't.

You wanted to paint that practice as official catholic policy, and connect it together because you hate Catholicism,

Nope again.. I detest indoctrination of any kind. Please keep up.

but it's a dirty fucking lie and you're being a dirty fucking liar if you don't see the disconnect between a cultural problem and a response to a cultural problem.

The 'cultural' problem is enshrined in the fact the Irish culture is as one with the Catholic church. Which is what I've been saying all along...

It was Irish cultural policy to toss those women out and this home was a catholic charity to combat it.

Hmm which perpetuated the idea and culture of seeing unwed mothers and their children as less than others. Or do you think forced adoption is the charitable ideal?

Don't sit here and tell me lies to support your own anti-fucking-religionism. It's not going to work, so let's analyze the Home truthfully and say to each other "Oh, you know, what the reporter said doesn't seem to make sense" and find some goddamn truth instead of bicker over political fucking garbage. Deal? But were going to have to be honest with each other, and I'll be flat out honest with you, I don't think you are capable of being honest with yourself. I think the ideas you've been fed about women's rights, the indoctrination, will trump anything I say. 

Frankly I don't really care what you think about me. This is a thread about a nunnery in Ireland (there may be more according to the Irish Government) that disposed of malnourished and ill children in a horrible way, counter to their own tenets.

Yes, but notice that Saudi Arabia is a hell of a place to live if you're a native and buy into the local religion. Kuwait's even better. Better than we have it in our countries, the Kuwaitis get a fucking check from their government instead of a tax form. Well, you know, sometimes ideas that don't conform to ideological paradigms can work better than those that do. The key is not to be so beholden to your own political paradigm as to be unable to see it. Ireland pulled itself out of the shitter with that Catholic-influenced political landscape to become, for a time, the diamond in the crown of the EU as far as economics. And it did it unconventionally, not relying on it's resources, but rather to invite business in and make itself attractive. The bottom fell out when it stopped and started thinking like standard labor parties do. Well, maybe you should take notice of that.

Really? It made itself attractive by being tied into the Euro and lending out money that couldn't be serviced. Consequently they currently have a crash of property values that make a dropped grand piano look like a featherweight.  Some diamond!

Yes, every nun in that institution was a mindless zombie bent on oppressing the inmates and torturing them. It was a concerted effort befitting of a cheap BDSM porno and surely no compassion was EVER shown. Quit thinking so fucking simplistically.

I didn't say every nun did I? I said it was Catholic policy to treat unwed mothers and their children as less than the wider community; Something that even the Catholic church admits too.

Everyone's opinion matters. Women suck at playing guitar. They absolutely suck except in a few rare instances. Don't believe me? Youtube all of the most successful bands in history and take a look. Testosterone makes for powerful electric guitar playing. Well, by your reasoning women shouldn't be able to give opinions on whether a guitarist sucks or not. Your reasoning is fucked. You want to hand out special rights, which means you are not for equal rights.

I won't even dignify that misogynistic crap. This isn't about opinion, it's about women deciding what they do with their own bodies. How would you feel if women decided you couldn't have a vasectomy? 

You don't know that it was unceremonious. Nor do you know that it was anything different than was going on in much of the world. Are you so insular as to think that past disposal of human bodies isn't sometimes disturbing to modern sensibilities?

Oh right. So getting local men to come in, under the cover of darkness to help dispose of dead kids in unmarked graves has all the trappings of a dignified burial? In a Catholic country, with the tenets of Christian burials? Yeah... sell that one again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary#mediaviewer/File:Kostnice_Sedlec.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_della_Concezione_dei_Cappuccini#mediaviewer/File:Rom,_Santa_Maria_Immacolata_a_Via_Veneto,_Krypta_der_Kapuziner_1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris#mediaviewer/File:Catacombs-700px.jpg

No mention of Ireland from the 20's to the 60's? Odd.

And again, seriously? You're burning body parts to heat a hospital and you're going to act indignant about body disposal?

I'm not burning anything. But I can throw the same thing back at you...Only the body parts never lived in the first place. The disposed children didn't have to die nor be treated as they were.

Yes, but the problem is you've bought into the new indoctrination. You're trying to say that males can't comment on the issues of women (but noticeably not the opposite) for Christ's sake. What the fuck do you think indoctrination looks like?

Where did I say that women could decide the fate of men? Show me.

Let's explore it if you have the balls. Give me an issue involving males that women are categorically not qualified to comment on. I dare you.

Dare me? Oooooo I'm scared... Answer: Anything that is personal to male adult individuals who are of sound mind and make a mutually consensual decision that doesn't harm or cause others' life changes. 

[pate]

The disposed children didn't have to die nor be treated as they were.

So the nuns were killing these kids or something?  I'm going to ask a couple sNooriesque questions here: 

How did the nuns kill the kids, did they use knives?

Were they mean babies?

Were the nuns robots?

Did the nuns think the septic tank was a portal?

What was going on there?

Why would the Pope have ordered this?

[Yorkshire pud]

So the nuns were killing these kids or something?  I'm going to ask a couple sNooriesque questions here: 

How did the nuns kill the kids, did they use knives?

Were they mean babies?

Were the nuns robots?

Did the nuns think the septic tank was a portal?

What was going on there?

Why would the Pope have ordered this?

That's more than two. No, no, no, no, no...It appears children were neglected and malnourished although it wasn't reflected in the access to funds to make sure they were cared for, and lastly, unlikely. 

[paladin1991]

Nah, Karl's just concerned for the future of the world and his country. He should be, we're sitting here in the US watching this ridiculous Mexican border farce, Iraq's falling like Saigon, Putin's sitting in Ukraine wondering where to expand next, and not one fucking leader on the planet is getting it right as to how to deal with it all. The world is turning into a place where the inmates run the asylum again, it's 1932 all over, and unhelpful diversions like this Irish Catholicism thing which is a comparatively minor leftwing political ploy are obscuring the fact that the planet is falling apart.

But who gets to be Germany this time around? 

[paladin1991]

Bullshit. He's just a pontificating arseole who sits all day looking up links to try and support what he already thinks (and I use that advisedly) is true. He makes the 'facts' fit the policy he's trying to project.

I thought that was called research.  Okay, I'll give you this, each side will do the research and come up with facts that support their claims.  Isn't that how the game is played?

[VtaGeezer]

Ok...been kinda watching this thread aimlessly meander around for a week.  The disposal of dead infants in the manner described is crude and distasteful, but a crime??  There is context here.  Does anyone realize how f'ing impoverished Ireland was during this period?  So maybe the nuns should have spent the little money they raised on tidy individual graves and caskets instead of on the unwed mothers and their living infants?  Was the infant mortality rate in the church-run institutions greater than the norm in dirt-poor pre-ECC Ireland where "central heat" meant an iron stove for burning the turf?  Were Irish unwed pregnancies handled that much differently than in most of Europe? Or, except for the abject poverty, in the USA for that matter.