Author Topic: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)  (Read 47633 times)

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Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #721 on: November 22, 2015, 12:20:57 PM »
Thank you - Meister and SV for your well thought out posts. Islam has never gone through a reformation, has it? Maybe the extremist movement is their reformation. I don't know enough about their religion or history to understand how it became what we see today.

I was aware of the strong influence they had on Spain, and the later Barbary Coast activity that affected the young US, but I'm a little sketchy about their intellectual period. Please forgive my ignorance on the subject but, wasn't that in Persia, where they practised religions other than Islam?
The two main religions, Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, were influential from east to west in the pre-Islamic period. Elements of which influenced all the developing monotheisms at the time. Manichaeism was even a brief rival of Christianity when they were replacing Paganism.

All these fighting factions within the Middle East were derived from these non Islamic religions. They can only be forced together, which can't be a viable solution forever. People need to be free in their core beliefs and customs- Islam, as it stands today, will never allow that.

SV- The Celts were indeed one of the most influential groups and their origins were different than anything I was taught many years ago.

Here's a documentary series on the Celts you might enjoy:




 


Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #723 on: November 22, 2015, 03:45:14 PM »
The two main religions, Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, were influential from east to west in the pre-Islamic period. Elements of which influenced all the developing monotheisms at the time. Manichaeism was even a brief rival of Christianity when they were replacing Paganism.

There was also (among all the other weird religions that have come and gone) the cult of Mithraism. Mithras was always pictured as a man cutting the throat of a bull, and that image was worshipped as a foundation myth across quite a large section of the world at one time. I don't know if it ever really came close to threatening Christianity as a competing religion but it was quite big at one point in time.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #724 on: November 22, 2015, 04:22:17 PM »
Just wait 'til Bill O'Reilly "writes" the definitive history of Islam vs Christianity; probably titled something like "Killing The White Decent Folks"
"Killing Mohammed" apparently all his books need to have "killing" in the title, even if the guy wasn't killed (saw one of his titles is "Killing Reagan"  :o)

One must comment on the odd situation that this character Obama cares more about immigrants, even illegal or radical Muslim than Americans. He is instructing his State Dept, HS, etc to allow and streamline/increase immigration of various radical Islamic "refugees" or illegal aliens, often gives shelter, heath care, legal aide, EBT cards, etc to illegals or "refugees" but veterans don't get that kind of help except health care after a long wait on getting on a list. And his State Dept refuses to give protection, or even allow in, an American and his pregnant wife during the latest peaceful Islamic actions in Paris :o
http://www.macon.com/news/local/article45033342.html
"The couple from Macon, in Paris to celebrate Will's 37th birthday, decided to make the two-mile walk to the U.S. Embassy, there to seek shelter and wait out the horror in the city.

Emergency vehicles screamed down the street as they walked. The couple didn't know precisely what had happened or whether it was still happening. They finally made it to the embassy, safe at last on American soil.

The embassy wouldn't let them in.

The American who met him at the gate said he was sorry, but Bogle and his wife couldn't come in to shelter there. He recommended walking to a hotel."

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #725 on: November 22, 2015, 04:23:01 PM »
There was also (among all the other weird religions that have come and gone) the cult of Mithraism. Mithras was always pictured as a man cutting the throat of a bull, and that image was worshipped as a foundation myth across quite a large section of the world at one time. I don't know if it ever really came close to threatening Christianity as a competing religion but it was quite big at one point in time.

There are those who claim that the Christ figure and story was based on Mithra. I've believed that for years, but tend to keep it to myself.  ;) :)

Quote from: thetruthbeknow,com
"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

"Mithra or Mitra is...worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #726 on: November 22, 2015, 04:24:47 PM »
There was also (among all the other weird religions that have come and gone) the cult of Mithraism. Mithras was always pictured as a man cutting the throat of a bull, and that image was worshipped as a foundation myth across quite a large section of the world at one time. I don't know if it ever really came close to threatening Christianity as a competing religion but it was quite big at one point in time.
He can get crazy but Clyde Lewis (Ground Zero radio show) goes on about Mithra and other ancient religions/cults all the time and there is interesting cross-overs from some of the ancient cults and the modern religions.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24846698/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/vatican-unveils-restored-pagan-tomb/

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #727 on: November 22, 2015, 04:34:30 PM »
"Killing Mohammed" apparently all his books need to have "killing" in the title, even if the guy wasn't killed (saw one of his titles is "Killing Reagan"  :o)

One must comment on the odd situation that this character Obama cares more about immigrants, even illegal or radical Muslim than Americans. He is instructing his State Dept, HS, etc to allow and streamline/increase immigration of various radical Islamic "refugees" or illegal aliens, often gives shelter, heath care, legal aide, EBT cards, etc to illegals or "refugees" but veterans don't get that kind of help except health care after a long wait on getting on a list. And his State Dept refuses to give protection, or even allow in, an American and his pregnant wife during the latest peaceful Islamic actions in Paris :o
http://www.macon.com/news/local/article45033342.html
"The couple from Macon, in Paris to celebrate Will's 37th birthday, decided to make the two-mile walk to the U.S. Embassy, there to seek shelter and wait out the horror in the city.

Emergency vehicles screamed down the street as they walked. The couple didn't know precisely what had happened or whether it was still happening. They finally made it to the embassy, safe at last on American soil.

The embassy wouldn't let them in.

The American who met him at the gate said he was sorry, but Bogle and his wife couldn't come in to shelter there. He recommended walking to a hotel."
You follow the O'Reilly model; find an insignificant factoid or anecdote and present it as the norm.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #728 on: November 22, 2015, 04:42:02 PM »
There are those who claim that the Christ figure and story was based on Mithra. I've believed that for years, but tend to keep it to myself.  ;) :)

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm
The evidential difference for me is that you had 11 disciples of Christ that would and did deny him one day and hid from authorities after the crucifixion.  Then one day they are preaching their asses off. All of the disciples except for John were tortured and suffered a horrible death. There are plenty if people that are willing to die for what they believe to be the truth (like the suicide bombers). I don't think you would find 100% participation of any group that was willing to be tortured and in some cases crucified for what they knew was a lie.

Lee Strobel was an investigative journalist for the Chicago Sun Times. After his wife converted to Christianity, he decided he was going to prove it was all a lie. He ended up convincing himself that it had to have been the truth. He wrote a very indepth analysis of his research and his path to his own conversion.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Christ-Journalists-Investigation/dp/B007YXWPZE

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #729 on: November 22, 2015, 04:45:01 PM »
You follow the O'Reilly model; find an insignificant factoid or anecdote and present it as the norm.
Anything for the foreigners, even radical or illegals ones, if they can move here. Granted we don't vett, or cannot do so, many illegal immigrants (or "refugees" from places like Syria) but, when we do, they are still often released (after criminal convictions or gang membership were discovered) into the community with a 'promise' to show up to court at a future date to discuss their immigration status. We even pay for their legal fees and have agencies, and other groups, to tell immigrants how to "game" the system (claim you are exploited or risk attack in your home country, claim you're a homosexual or a tranny, that you have family in the USA, report extra dependents to get more EBT cards, etc.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/world/asia/refugees-must-not-be-turned-away-obama-says.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/politics/obama-administration-immigration-ruling-supreme-court/index.html




Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #730 on: November 22, 2015, 04:55:16 PM »
There are those who claim that the Christ figure and story was based on Mithra. I've believed that for years, but tend to keep it to myself.  ;) :)

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

I've heard this before, too.  But even an acquaintance of mine who's an atheist archaeologist and president of his country's skeptical society agrees that, while it's clear early Christianity borrowed iconography from various religions around at the time, the man Jesus probably existed, though under a Hebrew name, who may have said some of the things attributed to Him.  It's like a pebble was dropped into the eastern Mediterranean that spread ripples -- too many things changed direction too quickly to have started with a myth somebody made up.

Sometimes you gotta take those old guys' word for it as the best evidence we've got.

What's interesting to me is the major shot of Eastern philosophy that Christianity injected into the Roman world, and speculating on where that came from.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #731 on: November 22, 2015, 05:24:19 PM »
Anything for the foreigners, even radical or illegals ones, if they can move here. Granted we don't vett, or cannot do so, many illegal immigrants (or "refugees" from places like Syria) but, when we do, they are still often released (after criminal convictions or gang membership were discovered) into the community with a 'promise' to show up to court at a future date to discuss their immigration status. We even pay for their legal fees and have agencies, and other groups, to tell immigrants how to "game" the system (claim you are exploited or risk attack in your home country, claim you're a homosexual or a tranny, that you have family in the USA, report extra dependents to get more EBT cards, etc.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/world/asia/refugees-must-not-be-turned-away-obama-says.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/politics/obama-administration-immigration-ruling-supreme-court/index.html
Just stay put.  We'll let you know when its OK to come out from under your bed.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #732 on: November 22, 2015, 05:31:33 PM »
Just stay put.  We'll let you know when its OK to come out from under your bed.
Being in, or under, one's bed will not protect you from one of Obama's precious illegal aliens or Muslim "refugees."
http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2015/07/deportations_revolving_door_suspects_in_lawrence_shooting

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #733 on: November 22, 2015, 05:56:33 PM »
Yep- shouldn't have admitted to accepting that theory.  ;)

We don't know for certain and can only go by what we personally feel is closest to the truth. I have no idea if Christ existed as a man or is a composite of the many, many religious preachers and saviours active in those times and places. I've found far too many inconsistencies in the story to convince me, but would not deny the right of others to believe in it.


Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #734 on: November 22, 2015, 06:18:19 PM »
First of all, thanks very much for your long and interesting response, and the book recommendation, which I will make a point of looking into. I can certainly testify to the lack of information most people have about the influence of Islamic culture - I have heard of Averroes, and places like Cordoba and Granada, but my knowledge of them is miniscule. You tend to accept that the beginnings of modern thought began from about the time of Dante, and everything before it was a blank after the collapse of Imperial Rome. Civilisation practically stopped during the Dark Ages, and I have usually heard its survival ascribed to the actions of a few Celts hiding away off the Irish coast, so the role of Islam should probably be better known. I think it would help to create some kind of connection between the two cultures, because at the moment there is no common ground at all, with both sides seeing the other as guilty of barbarism, albeit expressed in differing ways.

If I had to guess, I would say that the growth of militant Islam came about in the same way that the Puritans got a grip of England after the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods. Equally, it reminds me a little of the way that the Reformation followed - and ran parallel to - some of the great achievements of the Italian Renaissance. They might not be exact comparisons, but in each case there was a flowering of intellectual growth and achievement, together with a distinct atmosphere of decadence and corruption. You might get Shakespeare, but you also get the stews, bear-baiting and religious genocide (to name just a few horrors), while a flick through "Il Principe" shows you that - for all of its achievements in the visual arts and humanism - you were basically living through a Renaissance version of the Godfather, with people like Ludovico Sforza and Cesare Borgia doing what they liked and usually getting away with it.

I think we saw this reaction in miniature with the rise of Savonarola in Florence. There comes a time when people take all of the things in their culture for granted and want to throw out the baby with the bathwater and pursue some kind of militant austerity instead. It didn't last very long in his case, but I think most periods in history have seen a giant leap forward slowly being clawed back by people who see intellectual advancement as coterminous with luxury and every conceivable form of villainy. That's where religion usually comes in, because it is the universal bromide when it comes to stopping people advancing  beyond a certain stage of development. You will wish away any kind of achievement or intellectual ambition as long as you have a book of rules on your bedside table that gives you the freedom to not think about anything.

That's why I don't think any kind of diktat is going to work here. Any attempt to impose a solution on people will simply confirm what they already believe. You somehow have to detach the extremist types, who are beyond hope, from those who might still be capable of being saved. Islam seems (from my deep ignorance, admittedly) to be the religion where it is hardest to keep two sets of books. Most religions allow a certain latitude for people when it comes to observance (nobody, unless they are insane, is going to obey all the strictures of the Bible, for example) but Islam wants total surrender and negation.

I don't think it is going to work to tell every Muslim that their faith is shot through with corruption and needs to be junked. But you might have more success in stressing the achievements of Muslim culture (before its decline) while downplaying the fairy stories that surrounded them, and the brutal world they lived in. People don't have any trouble acknowledging the achievements of Latin authors, for example, despite their ludicrous polytheism; or decry Fifth Century Athens for its pederasty and slave culture. Sometimes we are unaware of great figures purely due to accidents of history, in the way that Spaniards say that Lope de Vega was the equal of Shakespeare but is less known due to the decline of the Spanish Empire.

What people like ISIS are opposed to, more than the US or anything else, is independent thought. Bombing people - which is all politicians seem capable of offering us these days - doesn't win any war of ideas. That doesn't mean accepting immoral or criminal behaviour, by the way. It's not an answer that will appeal to many people either because it isn't a panacea - and I am sure it is far from a total solution - but if people don't look beyond the borders of their own culture I don't know where they are going to go.

I have only heard about one book that is addressing these different issues. I haven't read it yet, but it might be of interest to people who want to find some kind of bridge between the two before it is too late.

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tolerance-A-Dialogue/dp/0674088700


Hi SV;
Your perception is warrented regading he comparative earlier void. Dante and his world was of the first or actually second generation (depending upon how you what to define things) to benefit directly and immediately from the Islamic Sphere influence and Intellectual recoveries. See this Wikipedia entry and note key names and players: Artstotle, Aquinas, Avveroes, and  Ibn Al Arabi.

Dante's Divine Comedy
- Theories of influence from Islamic philosophy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy

The most common denominator in that list is "Aristotle", and it was specifically our recovery or Aristotle's works (plus the addition of the works of his #1 Arabic language commentator, Averroes), that led to all that was to follow. No Aristotle would have meant no Aquinas (The #1 doctor of the Catholic Church to this day). Without Aristotle recoveries, no University of Paris, and no Oxford U (to speak of). Without Aristotle, half of the muscle behind the later developments in Secular civil law and ethics would have been missing and could not have happened (The other half coming from the separate but equally important recovery of Justinian's Code, being Roman secular civil law and Natural Law, and from Natural Law comes our notions of Natural Rights and Human Rights!). The physical sciences too needed that kick-start of Aristotle. NONE of that and more would have happened without our recovery of Aristotle via Medieval Muslim Spain.

So, here is book two on my must-read list:

Amazon USA:
"Aristotle's Children": How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and Illuminated the Middle Ages , 2004, by Richard E. Rubenstein

http://www.amazon.com/Aristotles-Children-Christians-Rediscovered-Illuminated/dp/0156030098/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447914476&sr=1-1&keywords=aristotles+children

That book will blow you away! -- trust me.

And while you're shopping, this book following will help to begin understanding how it happened that we lost or intellectual heritage in the first place.

"The Closing of the Western Mind": The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason, 2005, by Charles Freeman

Amazon USA:
http://www.amazon.com/Closing-Western-Mind-Faith-Reason/dp/1400033802/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447914551&sr=1-1&keywords=closing+of+the+western+mind

SV, I will buy a copy your book suggestion next month. I'm tapped till then and just spent $100 more on used Muslamic books last night.

And you are quite too and sadly right, when you say "Islam seems . . . to be the religion where it is hardest to keep _two_ sets of books. Most religions allow a certain latitude for people when it comes to observance (nobody, unless they are insane, is going to obey all the strictures of the Bible, for example) but Islam wants total surrender and negation."

And that's why I said earlier that the problem must be countered with a fervor, passion, dedication, commitment and resolve, equal to that of War-Hawk talk and action. i.e. It has to be approached with all the cunning and effort, planning and execution, of "Jihad" in it's "other" interpretation i.e. that of "Spiritual Warfare" and of the real kind and with all the "force" of head and heart, all the resources that can be mustered collectively, and the effort sustained until the job is done -- not forgotten about next week when the latest news-cycle steam-rolls or distracts us.

I don't think it is going to work to tell every Muslim that their faith is shot through with corruption and needs to be junked. But you might have more success in stressing the achievements of Muslim culture . . ."

Correct, and we should take-up that thread further later.

For now,  my time is more limited again so must sign-off for a spell.

Thanks again SV.

[And ladies, Caller and  Pye; hello, and I'll reply as soon as I can]

Bye

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #735 on: November 22, 2015, 07:10:09 PM »
Bruce DuMont on "Beyond the Beltway" is going to interview Cam Simpson of Bloomberg news about ISIS finances and operation.
On your AM affiliate or here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoHPN4Il1HA&feature=youtu.be
http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2014-the-business-of-isis-spreadsheets-annual-reports-and-terror/#/

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #736 on: November 22, 2015, 07:13:50 PM »
Florence?  Savanarola?  I'll save you guys a week of reading; watch "The Borgias" Season 2 Ep 9.  Close enough.



Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #738 on: November 23, 2015, 02:43:28 AM »
Yep- shouldn't have admitted to accepting that theory.  ;)

We don't know for certain and can only go by what we personally feel is closest to the truth. I have no idea if Christ existed as a man or is a composite of the many, many religious preachers and saviours active in those times and places. I've found far too many inconsistencies in the story to convince me, but would not deny the right of others to believe in it.

A couple of years back, I had found a webpage that cited Roman records.  That they did indeed crucify Jesus Christ.  I'll have to see if I can find that again.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #739 on: November 23, 2015, 03:04:56 AM »
A couple of years back, I had found a webpage that cited Roman records.  That they did indeed crucify Jesus Christ.  I'll have to see if I can find that again.

Interesting- I'd have to see the source and would be happy to read what you find. From what I understand, crucifixion was an extreme form of execution and reserved for the most severe crimes like sedition and treason. The Romans used it to make an example of the criminal to the rest of the population. It was also expensive. They required specially crafted nails and because it was a slow death, they needed to post guards to prevent people from taking the prisoner down to save him.

The story from the bible of the two thieves being crucified with Christ doesn't fit this scenario because they wouldn't merit that kind of execution.

I can't say for certain because I wasn't there, but neither were those who wrote about it many years after the event.   

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #740 on: November 23, 2015, 03:16:15 AM »
Interesting- I'd have to see the source and would be happy to read what you find. From what I understand, crucifixion was an extreme form of execution and reserved for the most severe crimes like sedition and treason. The Romans used it to make an example of the criminal to the rest of the population. It was also expensive. They required specially crafted nails and because it was a slow death, they needed to post guards to prevent people from taking the prisoner down to save him.

The story from the bible of the two thieves being crucified with Christ doesn't fit this scenario because they wouldn't merit that kind of execution.

I can't say for certain because I wasn't there, but neither were those who wrote about it many years after the event.   
Yeah, it also was a translation of a translation....English, Italian, Latin.  Or maybe it was English-Latin. 

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #741 on: November 23, 2015, 06:42:18 AM »
Thank you - Meister and SV for your well thought out posts. Islam has never gone through a reformation, has it? Maybe the extremist movement is their reformation. I don't know enough about their religion or history to understand how it became what we see today.

I was aware of the strong influence they had on Spain, and the later Barbary Coast activity that affected the young US, but I'm a little sketchy about their intellectual period. Please forgive my ignorance on the subject but, wasn't that in Persia, where they practised religions other than Islam?
The two main religions, Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, were influential from east to west in the pre-Islamic period. Elements of which influenced all the developing monotheisms at the time. Manichaeism was even a brief rival of Christianity when they were replacing Paganism.

All these fighting factions within the Middle East were derived from these non Islamic religions. They can only be forced together, which can't be a viable solution forever. People need to be free in their core beliefs and customs- Islam, as it stands today, will never allow that.

SV- The Celts were indeed one of the most influential groups and their origins were different than anything I was taught many years ago.

Here's a documentary series on the Celts you might enjoy:

_ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU1dKfMIEUQ


Hi Pyewacket, and thanks.

In Islam, once matured (if you will), change, variation, regionalism, place and time differences, did and does manifest to some degree,  but I think only "relative" to what Islam _can_ possibly permit given the basic inflexibility and fixed/static facts of its central core of stuff. Real and appreciable reform, by our standards, or more dramatic and severe reform analogous to 16th century Christian Reformation(s), could probably not happen and still be called Islam and still be centered upon Muhammad and his Qur'an, the Hadith, and Shariah Law, etc.

The Qur'an itself is only one part of the textual material that make-up Islam.  There is a large and long-ago-fixed body of "stories" aka "Traditions" about Muhammad claimed to have been "authenticated" by a "chain" of "respected" sources back to the time of Muhammad, his sayings and doings apart from anything recorded within the Qur'an itself -- [the majority of even those "pedigreed" stories are most likely fictions!] The totality of that absolutely requisite textual stuff is unchangeable. The game of interpretation, exegesis, can only be pushed so far. In fact, and additionally, part of the non- reformable matter of Islam and the Qur'an is it's inextricability from the Arabic language itself.  Unlike the New Testament for example, which can be considered valid and authentic and approved, in either Greek, Latin, and since the Reformation, in countless other languages as well, there is no such thing as an "approved" translation of the Qur'an in ANY other language.  Further, the excuse is commonly given that Westerners are incapable of appreciating the "sheer poetry", beauty, meaning, and divinity of the Qur'an and its messages because of the superiority of Arabic and the deficits of any other language. [Arrogance, presumption, and the feigning of piety are hallmarks of Islam] So you'll know now that when you read the greatest spiritual teacher who ever walked the earth telling you that for such and such offence "cut off both the right hand and left foot" of the offender, why it is that the beauty of that message escaped you, and subsequently too, when the very next sentence reminds that "God is merciful" you'll know why the poetry of it is lost on you --  because Arabic can't be translated into other languages. [sorry, I am an infidel, admittedly]. And this is but a small sample of the kind of insanity we're dealing with.

The intellectual boom first occurred in the late 8th century Eastern Caliphate in the then just newly built city of (old) Baghdad. And yes, the area was at that time part of the Persian Empire territories. [Iraq, is a mid 20th cent invention]. A second but Western Caliphate (hostile to the Eastern) later evolved in Spain. Ultimately, copies of the manuscripts in Baghdad libraries made there way to the Western Caliphate in Spain -- from where we ultimately obtained them. It is true though, that, with the early submission of Persia to Islam (637 ad) the desert Arabs got their first taste of real and historied culture and learning and all that comes with that, including an assortment of religious exposures. [I just saw on Wikipedia that one of the two designers of the new city was a Zoroastrian Persian.] Northern India borders Persia as well, so you get that culture stream too  -- eg. "Hindu-Arabic" numerals, including Zero -- yet _another_ Major transference to the West, along with Algebra, from the greater medieval Islamosphere.

Regarding the Celts contribution to knowledge preservation and transmission, all I know is that the Celtic Rite monks did spread out to build monasteries in Europe in the 7th 8th 9th centuries, and are credited with helping to sustain any kind of general literacy at all in early medieval Europe and also maintain whatever small amount of ancient Greek knowledge there remained even to them (compared with the mother-load we later recovered from Muslim Spain).

There is one book I know of and have somewhere on that subject and story which I could not get through even 10 pages of some years ago (due to the author's pop writing-style) but here it is, miss-leading title and all:

"How the Irish Saved Civilization": The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role From the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe, 1996, by Thomas Cahill

Amazon USA
http://www.amazon.com/How-Irish-Saved-Civilization-Irelands/dp/0385418493/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448260669&sr=1-1&keywords=how+the+irish+saved+civilization

I haven't seen that BBC documentary on the Celts, but I will do soon. Thanks for passing it on.

Later

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #742 on: November 23, 2015, 06:52:21 AM »
Islam is essentially at war with EVERY non-Muslim. Period. If you don't believe me read the Quran. Killing infidels is acceptable, basically anything goes, as long as it is against non-believers... Muslim apologists like to dismiss or ignore this completely. After a terrorist attack (clearly out by Muslims) occurs; cable news will quickly interview some Muslim apologist whom sole purpose is claiming - "Not ALL Muslims", or deny the terrorists were "true" Muslims, and Islam, is a religion of 'peace.' Playing the victim card by opining fearfully about the "possible" backlash against the Muslim community, "Islamophobia", and other whoa-is-me nonsense. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not a bigot so spare me. I think re-evaluating how we deal with Islam, and its apologists is a high priority. I have no interest in making Muslims give up their beliefs. My only interest is maintaining objectivity. Islam, is not and NEVER should be held beyond reproach in the media, or a taboo topic to openly discuss or criticize publicly. Thank you.

-Be Well

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #743 on: November 23, 2015, 10:39:31 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to respond, Meister. I will look into the information and recommended book.

All I can say is that our collective devotion to an imaginary deity, whichever one you consider to be the "true" deity, that leads to ignorance, oppression, death and destruction, is our shame as a species.   

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #744 on: November 23, 2015, 11:13:11 AM »
A couple of years back, I had found a webpage that cited Roman records.  That they did indeed crucify Jesus Christ.  I'll have to see if I can find that again.

This page will give you the names of the Roman historrians at the time. You can use their names to find the original source material. It lists 3.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

There was a Jewish historian named Josephus. Sane with that you can goigle to find the original source material.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #745 on: November 23, 2015, 12:51:36 PM »
This page will give you the names of the Roman historrians at the time. You can use their names to find the original source material. It lists 3.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

There was a Jewish historian named Josephus. Sane with that you can goigle to find the original source material.
Thanks for posting the link with the secular confirmation of the historical support for Jesus.
Although, I was only aware of Josephus up until this point.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #746 on: November 23, 2015, 01:59:26 PM »
http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius:
No Proof of Jesus
by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S

http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

Suns of God:
Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled

Why is there no mention of Jesus Christ by historians of his time?

What is the Mysterious Brotherhood?

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #747 on: November 23, 2015, 02:26:36 PM »
IIRC, historians can just barely confirm Pontius Pilate's tenure in Judea, let alone one of thousands of criminals he may have condemned.

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #748 on: November 23, 2015, 03:07:19 PM »
The pictures from Brussels are amazing. It is like a post-apocalyptic movie with nobody on the streets etc. And where you do see people it is usually police/military trying to track down the terrorists and other radical threats. Sort of crazy that a few Muslims can shut down a major city but I guess, 'in the abundance of caution' and considering how many Muslim immigrants Belgium has allow in that it was a necessary step. But doesn't something like shutting down a major city also give the Muslims pride at their power and maybe encourage them in their peaceful activities?

Meanwhile at Bellgab and elsewhere people are concerned about Christians and history.  :o Why worry, they aren't beheading or burning folks (at least anymore,) worst case you get approached with a flyer, get some charity help, get a day off work for Christmas, or get some hospital opened up in your area. And the most evil people ever (white, Christian, males) are shrinking and becoming less and less a 'threat' everyday. Worry about the Muslims.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/poll-white-christians-population-216154

Re: Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)
« Reply #749 on: November 23, 2015, 03:17:57 PM »
But doesn't something like shutting down a major city also give the Muslims pride at their power...
I'm sure it does.  I bet the "cost" of losing one business day in Brussels is hundreds of millions €, and this is Day 3 of the hysteria.  I think they're over reacting big time.