"My DNA for a horse!"

[Sardondi]

I waited to see if someone else would have filed something on this but apparently not.

In huge, huge news for lovers of, variously, medieval British history, archaeology, genealogy and/or Shakespeare, a team of scientists announced yesterday that they are satisfied "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a skeleton discovered underneath a parking lot in Leicester in the midlands is in fact that of the "hunchback king", Richard III, who was killed some 20 miles away in the Battle of Bosworth Field in August 1485.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9846693/Richard-III-skeleton-is-the-king.html.

Geneticists were convinced that a modern Canadian descendant of Richard III's sister was a close enough match to the skeleton to conclude that the bones were those of the defeated king. In addition to the DNA findings there were several other pieces of evidence which convinced the team of the identity of the bones. The burial site (under Greyfriar's church, which was destroyed in the English Civil War); the hurried burial with no preparation of the body; the fact the skeleton had scoliosis of the spine which would have raised one shoulder significantly higher than the other; and the trauma to the skull, both pre- and post-mortem, all led to the inescapable conclusion that Richard III had been found.

Richard III has come down to us as one of the most villainous English rulers, both for his usurpation of the crown and for his suspected part in the death of "the little princes in the Tower". However, some historians have wondered whether Shakespeare's most unflattering account of Richard III arises more from his wish to ingratiate himself with the granddaughter of the man who some thing may have personally killed Richard, Henry Tudor, who became Henry VII, than a love of truth. Regardless, I find this fascinating, particularly since the discovery points out the value of both ancient historical accounts as well as oral histories. UK citizens are so very fortunate to be surrounded by such rich and varied history. 

[Rachael Nexusei]

I read of this, this morning.  You have described it most elegantly, and I agree, it must be amazing to live in countries with such extremely long and varied histories. I would be constantly groveling in the dirt! 
(Of course, when I first read the subject, it made me wonder if you were looking to barter, or what! )

[Sardondi]

And today they've released the facial reconstruction of Richard III: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21328380




Pretty close to the painting but I'm unsure when it was done. Of course the Tudors were in power for about 120 years afterwards, so this could be a painting from life. Anyone?


Amazing. Looks like Sir Laurence Olivier to me! One thing which still knocks me out is how in the world this spine-twisted man even sat on a horse, much less donned full armor and fought on horseback. More than that, it is beyond dispute he was killed when he personally led a charge of mounted knights toward a group of knights surrounding his rival, Henry Tudor, who was shortly to be crowned Henry VII as well as become father of the future king, Henry VIII. Richard personally attacked at least two of Tudor's bodyguards, one his standard bearer, who would have been riding virtually beside Henry Tudor. Richard "bore them into the ground", perhaps killing them outright.

It is unknown if he literally came to blows with Tudor himself, although Shakespeare tells it that way. Regardless of whether Richard of York died in a mano-a-mano duel with the founder of the Tudor line, or was more likely surrounded and dragged down by an unmounted band of halberdiers and ax-wielders who then ferociously hacked and stabbed him to death as he struggled pitifully in the mud, he was clearly a physically courageous man, whatever his sins.

This stuff has me so jazzed. 

[Caruthers612]

[size=78%]This stuff has me so jazzed. [/size]

                  As does your account. So well-written and replete with knowledge. Are you an amateur historian, or simply a highly literate person--something as rare nowadays as your skill in exposition. You really bring it to life. I had read an article about the discovery on physorg.com, but nothin' so bleedin' scholarly as yours. I must point out, though, the one thingy what you left out, and that be we now have confirmation of Edmund Blackadder's role in the whole affair. I mean, who'd have thought it, right?

[Sardondi]

... I must point out, though, the one thingy what you left out, and that be we now have confirmation of Edmund Blackadder's role in the whole affair. I mean, who'd have thought it, right?

"Fresh horses!!!" Ah, to hear Brian Blessed shout it yet again. (Just last night I happened to watch Branagh's Henry V, so I was treated to not only Blessed's glorious bellowing and diction, but Derek Jacobi's powerful and diamond-sharp instrument as well.) I too love the magnificent Blackadder episodes, so woefully few in number. (Good exam question: compare and contrast Rowan Atkinson's tongue-flick in the first Blackadder iteration, with the somewhat less reptilian lingual thrust of Jeremy Piven as A-list talent agent Ari Gold in the otherwise wretchedly talent-free Entourage, 2004-2011.)

But what a brilliant show was the Blackadder series, peopled by a magnificent cast from top to bottom. Was there a regular in any of the four ages of Blackadder who did not become at least a fully employed character actor, if not a star him- or herself? If nothing else Rowan Atkinson was a fantastic judge of talent. I hardly know which is my favorite age. And as much as I like to imagine myself immune to sentimentality and manipulative writing, the finale of Blackadder Goes Forth brought a tear to my eye for that devastated and maimed generation. I'm a firm believer that Britain primarily has the butcher Douglas Haig to thank for what I think is its series of later disastrous choices which resulted in the voluntarily relinquishment of greatness and even control of its own destiny. It had simply suffered too much wastage of its finest, most capable and most selfless men in WWI (and to a lesser degree in WWII) to be a major power after the latter war.

As to my background, I'm no expert, just an amateur historian. More accurately I'm just a reader of, in increasing concentration, history, Western civilization, American history, British history, military history, 19th -and 20th-century primarily-European wars, WWI and WWII. And a sometimes interwebz commentator.

Great reference!

[Rachael Nexusei]

I love Hugh Laurie as the Prince George 

[Sardondi]

The city officials of Leicester, no doubt with an eye to tourist pounds and euros, have claimed the body of Richard III as theirs by right of law, and say they will inter it in the city's (Anglican?) cathedral. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57567909/king-richard-iiis-bones-spark-custody-battle/  and also http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9847738/Richard-III-to-be-re-interred-in-major-ceremony-at-Leicester-Cathedral.html

Just how the hell do the Leicester officials intellectually and legally justify holding the remains of an English monarch? Right of conquest? Finders-keepers? It's as if the mayor of Dallas, Texas announced on November 23, 1963 that,"We're gonna bury this ol' boy raht chere." (That's "right here" in Tex-ese.) Why wouldn't either Richard's family*, which ought to include not merely the House of York but the House of Windsor as well, have a claim on the remains? Or the country? This strikes me as bad form at a minimum, and perhaps a violation of British funerary law as well.

And here is a comparison of Richard's facial reconstruction and Sir Laurence Olivier who played the king on film in 1955. I think it's a remarkable resemblance. Plus I love Olivier's heavy-lidded look of brooding menace.








And in news of another even more significant English Anglo-Saxon ruler, archaeologists have set their sights on finding the bones of Alfred the Great in Winchester at St. Bartholomew's Church. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9848984/After-Richard-III-archaeologists-set-their-sights-on-Alfred-the-Great.html

Simply incredible: Alfred had been dead and buried for almost 600 years before Richard III ever heaved his twisted body into the saddle to ride to his death at Bosworth Field in 1485. Amazing discoveries. But even if likely remains are found and usable DNA samples can be retrieved, how in the world would descendants be found 1100 years after Alfred's death. The archaeologists just may have to settle for some unburned oat cakes. What a great time for British archaeology and history.


*Richard didn't have any confirmed progeny did he? So any living relatives would be descendants of nieces, nephews and cousins I presume. 

[Sardondi]

Okay, one last post and I'll let this thread die a merciful death. Now the linguists are in the act and have determined Richard didn't speak with a rich northern brogue one might expect from the Duke of York, but sounded more as if he was from the Western Midlands. The experts base this on their study of a letter from Richard, which contains a couple of lines he penned in his own hand. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9850249/Voice-of-the-King-did-Richard-III-have-a-West-Midlands-accent.html There's even a recording of one of the scientists speaking in imitation of the king.

Hmmm. Color me skeptical the scientists had enough data to draw their conclusion. Besides, the recording sounds more like "Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote" to me.

Okay, that's it. I tried. Turn out the lights. Go back to crying over a 68-year-old man's decision not to go back to work. I give up. God knows I tried to bring something other than UFOs or ghosts. But it was not to be. Philistines. *sob*

[Caruthers612]

       Sardondi, baby, you're a man after my own heart. And let's hope nothing else. I like the cut o' yer jib, boy. I hope to learn from you, break fast with you, sup with you, wine you, dine you, and, let's face it, probably try and shag you. Until then, sing for me "Hot Sex Madrigal (in the middle of my tights)."

[Sardondi]

Sardondi, baby, you're a man after my own heart. And let's hope nothing else. I like the cut o' yer jib, boy. I hope to learn from you, break fast with you, sup with you, wine you, dine you, and, let's face it, probably try and shag you. Until then, sing for me "Hot Sex Madrigal (in the middle of my tights)."

You're very kind. However, please don't be offended if I don't respond in like fashion, because a very smart science guy from some place once conclusively proved on Jerry Springer that there are no women writing on the internet. None. And I'm just too old to explore the guy-guy thing. So if it's all the same I think I'll just sit over here by myself and nurse a lifetime of slights, resentments and revenge fantasies. Okay, where's my list?...

[Yorkshire pud]

For what it's worth I can see both sides of the 'Where should Richard the turd be buried' debate. As a Yorkshireman I should be fiercely parochial and get on my soapbox and demand he be interred in York Minster (cathedral in York) and that's that; but I can see how Liecestershire could have dabs too.

[Juan]

Reminds me of the decades long fight between the state of Georgia and the city of Chattanooga over the locomotive "The General."  Georgia finally stole the thing, took it to Kennesaw (during the War Between the States called Big Shanty) and built a building around it so it could not be removed.

[Caruthers612]

Reminds me of the decades long fight between the state of Georgia and the city of Chattanooga over the locomotive "The General."  Georgia finally stole the thing, took it to Kennesaw (during the War Between the States called Big Shanty) and built a building around it so it could not be removed.

         Kennesaw Mountain was called Big Shanty?

[Juan]

The town of Kennesaw, at the base of Kennesaw Mountain, was called Big Shanty.  That's where the train's crew was eating breakfast, at the hotel/restaurant, when Andrews stole the train.

[McPhallus]

But what a brilliant show was the Blackadder series, peopled by a magnificent cast from top to bottom. Was there a regular in any of the four ages of Blackadder who did not become at least a fully employed character actor, if not a star him- or herself? If nothing else Rowan Atkinson was a fantastic judge of talent. I hardly know which is my favorite age. And as much as I like to imagine myself immune to sentimentality and manipulative writing, the finale of Blackadder Goes Forth brought a tear to my eye for that devastated and maimed generation. I'm a firm believer that Britain primarily has the butcher Douglas Haig to thank for what I think is its series of later disastrous choices which resulted in the voluntarily relinquishment of greatness and even control of its own destiny. It had simply suffered too much wastage of its finest, most capable and most selfless men in WWI (and to a lesser degree in WWII) to be a major power after the latter war.

I remember that last episode when the characters were talking about the front line "big push" as a military euphemism for what would amount to their deaths.

That show was such a funny, snarky, and irreverent thing, and then we get jarred by a lump-in-the-throat drama at the end.  The British have a way of mixing comedy and drama like no one else.

That cocky smartass American pilot character was funny, too.

[Rachael Nexusei]

Okay, so I did not know where else to post this, and since it deals with history, I chose here.  This looks as if it may be interesting-

http://www.history.com/shows/vikings/videos/vikings-sneak--peek?m=512794f2895de#

I mean, who doesn't like Vikings? (and that was not a rhetorical question) 
I suppose it will not have dragons.  Like Dragons: Riders of Berk, which seem to be Vikings, yet they speak like Scots (sort of) or Americans....
I like the show, anyway because, who doesn't like dragons! :-)
And now someone can enlighten me on Germanic Scots or something of the like :-P

But I am serious about the above show on the History Channel.

[onan]

Okay, so I did not know where else to post this, and since it deals with history, I chose here.  This looks as if it may be interesting-

http://www.history.com/shows/vikings/videos/vikings-sneak--peek?m=512794f2895de#

I mean, who doesn't like Vikings? (and that was not a rhetorical question) 
I suppose it will not have dragons.  Like Dragons: Riders of Berk, which seem to be Vikings, yet they speak like Scots (sort of) or Americans....
I like the show, anyway because, who doesn't like dragons! :-)
And now someone can enlighten me on Germanic Scots or something of the like :-P

But I am serious about the above show on the History Channel.

I will be giving it a shot. In some ways it reminds me of "the 13th Warrior". thanks for the heads up.

[Rachael Nexusei]

I will be giving it a shot. In some ways it reminds me of "the 13th Warrior". thanks for the heads up.

OMG!  I love that movie!!!

[Yorkshire pud]

Okay, so I did not know where else to post this, and since it deals with history, I chose here.  This looks as if it may be interesting-

http://www.history.com/shows/vikings/videos/vikings-sneak--peek?m=512794f2895de#

I mean, who doesn't like Vikings? (and that was not a rhetorical question) 
I suppose it will not have dragons.  Like Dragons: Riders of Berk, which seem to be Vikings, yet they speak like Scots (sort of) or Americans....
I like the show, anyway because, who doesn't like dragons! :-)
And now someone can enlighten me on Germanic Scots or something of the like :-P

But I am serious about the above show on the History Channel.

Some words used in Scotland are German in origin Rachael.. 'Do yer ken?' (Do you know)..Ken is a derivation of kennen (know) for example. Not really surprising; the British Isles have had quite a collection of invaders over the last two or so thousend years. 

[Sardondi]

I'm not a fan of Vikings. No more than I am of the Ostrogoths, Visogoths, Huns, Mongols or scores of other virus cultures which only plundered and destroyed without "replanting" with anything of cultural value.

[ziznak]

I know right... damn jews

[Foodlion]

I sure could use a BBQ horse burger about right now. That's it, I can't take it anymore. I'm off to Burger King.

[Caruthers612]

Okay, so I did not know where else to post this, and since it deals with history, I chose here.  This looks as if it may be interesting-

http://www.history.com/shows/vikings/videos/vikings-sneak--peek?m=512794f2895de#

I mean, who doesn't like Vikings? (and that was not a rhetorical question) 
I suppose it will not have dragons.  Like Dragons: Riders of Berk, which seem to be Vikings, yet they speak like Scots (sort of) or Americans....
I like the show, anyway because, who doesn't like dragons! :-)
And now someone can enlighten me on Germanic Scots or something of the like :-P

But I am serious about the above show on the History Channel.

          Nota Bene: Rachael, the gloids here don't know what a rhetorical question is. You might try pouring some slop in a trough. That ought'a do it.
          Yeah, I saw the ad for the Vikings show on youtube last night. As I noted elsewhere, I am amazed the History channel has taken time off from Nazis. Maybe Vikings are the new Nazis. We should surf over to Discovery Science to see if pot-bellied pigs are the new dinosaurs.
          As for Vikings, as far as I know there were both Norse and Swedish Vikings, and the ones that landed in the Orkneys were responsible for the Stone Age settlements you can still visit up there today. They also raided and settled in the northern mainland of Scotland, where they had their way with the local lasses--and why not--which is why the famous red hair from up there is referred to as Orkney Red. It's an historical allusion to its genetic origin, when some unsuspecting lass of old was gathering peat on the heath and was tumbled by a hairy Norseman.

[Rachael Nexusei]

and in the field of fecal archeology-
http://www.livescience.com/37531-ancient-toilet-reveals-parasites-in-crusader-poop.html?cmpid=527276

[Sardondi]

and in the field of fecal archeology-
http://www.livescience.com/37531-ancient-toilet-reveals-parasites-in-crusader-poop.html?cmpid=527276

Grandma always said that undercooked bacon would give you trichina worms!

[Rachael Nexusei]

1955- Salvador Dali paints Laurence Olivier as Richard III
(from retronaut)

[Rachael Nexusei]

700,000 year old DNA from an ancient horse('s ancestor)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12323.html

[Rachael Nexusei]

http://www.livescience.com/37835-archaeologists-return-to-richard-iii-gravesite.html?cmpid=529605

[MV/Liberace!]

i don't think this has been posted here yet... but they've reconstructed the face of richard iii using scans of his skull.







edit:  never mind.  i'm a jism satchel.  i just scrolled up.

[Sardondi]

Nope. But it is so nice to see our site proprietor carries the doofus gene just like us.