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Latest French Attacks: updates (in English)

Started by albrecht, November 13, 2015, 03:50:16 PM

K_Dubb

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 02:17:11 PM
They may have just been trolling. Though honestly, I never see those on the left defending other religions as they do Islam.  Why is that?

It's because many on the Left see themselves as somehow above politics, just spectators and commenters, leaving the dirty (and really hard) real work to the unwashed masses.  They weigh in not based on sympathy like normal people but in response to a perceived need to balance the debate.

SciFiAuthor

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 02:09:16 PM
I wouldn't read too much into that. Turkish football fans are notoriously demented and expecting a moment of respectful silence from that lot was always going to be too much to expect. They pride themselves on being as hostile to opposition teams as possible, holding up signs with "welcome to Hell" and so on.

I'd say yes, except they are chanting Allahu Akbar. This is Turkey we're talking about, I could see them yelling "Go back to Greece you dick sucking twats" but an Arabic religious phrase? Add that with what's been going on in Turkish politics over the last decade with a seemingly increasing desire to move away from Ataturk's secularism and increasing tension between more liberal areas of Turkey like Istanbul and the more conservative types that seem to be in control in Ankara. I find it all a little uncomfortable. 

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 02:17:11 PM
They may have just been trolling. Though honestly, I never see those on the left defending other religions as they do Islam.  Why is that?

That's a big generalisation. I am sure you could adduce examples that support you, just as I could find ones that prove the opposite. I think it's silly and counter-productive to pin the attacks on a religion right now, even if there happens to be merit in the argument. Islam exists and we have to live with it, whether we like it or not. You can't smoke 'em all out and kill 'em, even if you wanted to. Telling a large group of people that their beliefs are wicked and evil is not going to help, however true it might be. It will take a lot longer to make an impact, but politicians never think beyond the next headline and so bombing is a panacea for them.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: SciFiAuthor on November 18, 2015, 02:32:44 PM
I'd say yes, except they are chanting Allahu Akbar. This is Turkey we're talking about, I could see them yelling "Go back to Greece you dick sucking twats" but an Arabic religious phrase? Add that with what's been going on in Turkish politics over the last decade with a seemingly increasing desire to move away from Ataturk's secularism and increasing tension between more liberal areas of Turkey like Istanbul and the more conservative types that seem to be in control in Ankara. I find it all a little uncomfortable.

I didn't know they were playing Greece. They hate each other because of Cyprus, so it just makes it even more likely in my opinion that they were being deliberately provocative in the style of football fans across the world. Dutch domestic teams try and piss off rival clubs who have large Jewish followings, for example, by making hissing noises to simulate the gas chambers, so these bastards are capable of anything. Don't expect shrewd political discussion from these troglodytes. They will say or do anything to be as intimidating as possible, especially to the Greeks. To me, it's a bunch of morons in the wake of a tragic event trying to piss off another bunch of people by asserting their Muslim identity. I don't suppose they were thinking much about the great days of the Ottoman Empire and the Sublime Porte but it could just be possible, I suppose.

SciFiAuthor

Quote from: VoteQuimby on November 18, 2015, 02:14:33 PM
I just don't get what most Islams get with all this. Religion is bullshit. Even most religious people know it's bullshit. It's about power, wealth and the control of people. So what do Islamic folks get by cheering on the murder of 100s of innocent people?

The us vs. them mentality can be quite strong. Granted that it's not smart to tar everyone with the same brush, I used to have beers with an ex-Syrian friend and he could outdrink me despite nominally being a Muslim, but ideologies can and do form up and I don't like what I'm seeing within Islam.

I agree with your assessment of religion. Not my cup of tea either. Well, unless I get to be the leader and get tons of free stuff, then I'm totally up for it. 


SciFiAuthor

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 02:40:03 PM
I didn't know they were playing Greece. They hate each other because of Cyprus, so it just makes it even more likely in my opinion that they were being deliberately provocative in the style of football fans across the world. Dutch domestic teams try and piss off rival clubs who have large Jewish followings, for example, by making hissing noises to simulate the gas chambers, so these bastards are capable of anything. Don't expect shrewd political discussion from these troglodytes. They will say or do anything to be as intimidating as possible, especially to the Greeks. To me, it's a bunch of morons in the wake of a tragic event trying to piss off another bunch of people by asserting their Muslim identity. I don't suppose they were thinking much about the great days of the Ottoman Empire and the Sublime Porte but it could just be possible, I suppose.

I never could quite grasp why one would want to refer to their sultan as "the Sublime Porte". Odd people, those Ottomans. At any rate, I think that is indeed Greece. Few groups loathe each other more than the Greeks and Turks. Cyprus, the burning of Smyrna, etc. etc. just centuries of bad blood there. It could just be hooliganism, anti-Greek sentiment, or more. I just found it an uncomfortable sight.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: VoteQuimby on November 18, 2015, 02:00:56 PM
That is extremely interesting. We have historically greatly underrated our technological capabilities and greatly overrated Eastern technology. I'm reminded of how we'd think the latest greatest MIGs were greatly outpacing our planes. Then a Russian or Chinese pilot would defect with one and we'd find out that we had greatly overrated their capabilities.

Given our massive jump on the rest of the world on computer technology and our somewhat open society where geniuses are encouraged and big league hackers are hired rather than imprisoned, I could see us completely owning the digital age and being able to do things like this.

When you think about it a Russian cruise missile is going to connect to a Russian satellite to receive it's guidance and orders. That seems to me that would be pretty easy to break into especially given how far ahead of them we are in digital technology.

Crashing one into Iran like you said would be a win/win on all fronts. I'm not sure you'd want to tip your hand that you have that ability but at the same time, there is a western sense of humor to it. Like when we owned Iranian Nuclear Plants through a cyber virus that took over their computer systems while blasting AC/DC in 2012.  ;D

Don't make the mistake of equating the low tech nature of the Soviet and Chinese weapons with them being ineffective.  Low tech meant they could be produced more simply, maintained by relatively uneducated draftees, and deployed in higher numbers.  That was the basis of the "quality v. quantity" debate that went on throughout the Cold War.

Having said that, in the late 80s the US agreed to help the Chinese upgrade one of their fighter aircraft (F-8II/J-8II) with advanced avionics and fire control systems.  The program was known as "Peace Pearl" and the prime contractor was Grumman Aircraft of Long Island, NY.  Since US pilots would be taking part in the flight test program of the upgraded a/c, a team of us were sent to Grumman to conduct what amounted to a "safe to fly" audit of the "green" aircraft and its systems.  I wasn't a EE or avionics guy, but even I was astounded when the Chinese opened electronic bays on the a/c to reveal multiple banks of vacuum tubes.  Even more surprising was how little testing they had done on various systems and their interfaces, yet were flying the fighters operationally.  Luckily, the safety of US pilots was never to become an issue as the program was halted after political differences between the US and PRC resulting from the Tiananmen Square debacle.

SciFiAuthor

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 02:17:11 PM
They may have just been trolling. Though honestly, I never see those on the left defending other religions as they do Islam.  Why is that?

It does occasionally happen. I remember Hitchens was after Islam before he died and was calling out others on the left to condemn it too because, well, it's a religion after all and currently the most violent and counterproductive one. I think their general reluctance to condemn just comes from a desire to be contrarian within the context of the old outdated left-right spectrum we're still unfortunately saddled with.

Juan

I see Wikipedia is still reporting the April 1, 1944 raid as a mistake:

Schaffhausen

The daylight bombing of Schaffhausen on 1 April 1944 by the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) was the most serious of all incidents. Approximately 50 B-24 Liberators of a larger force misidentified Schaffhausen as their target Ludwigshafen am Rhein near Mannheim (about 235 km north of Schaffhausen), and dropped bombs that led to 40 fatalities, numerous injuries, and property damage. At the insistence of the Swiss government for an explanation, Allied investigations into the incident found that bad weather broke up the American formation over France, and that high winds that nearly doubled the ground speed of the bombers confused the navigators. (Two other widely scattered cities in Germany and France were also mistakenly bombed during the same mission.) As Schaffhausen is situated on the right bank (north side) of the Rhine river, it was apparently assumed to be the German city. By October 1944, 4 million dollars had been paid in restitution.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Uncle Duke on November 18, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
Don't make the mistake of equating the low tech nature of the Soviet and Chinese weapons with them being ineffective.  Low tech meant they could be produced more simply, maintained by relatively uneducated draftees, and deployed in higher numbers.  That was the basis of the "quality v. quantity" debate that went on throughout the Cold War.

Having said that, in the late 80s the US agreed to help the Chinese upgrade one of their fighter aircraft (F-8II/J-8II) with advanced avionics and fire control systems.  The program was known as "Peace Pearl" and the prime contractor was Grumman Aircraft of Long Island, NY.  Since US pilots would be taking part in the flight test program of the upgraded a/c, a team of us were sent to Grumman to conduct what amounted to a "safe to fly" audit of the "green" aircraft and its systems.  I wasn't a EE or avionics guy, but even I was astounded when the Chinese opened electronic bays on the a/c to reveal multiple banks of vacuum tubes.  Even more surprising was how little testing they had done on various systems and their interfaces, yet were flying the fighters operationally.  Luckily, the safety of US pilots was never to become an issue as the program was halted after political differences between the US and PRC resulting from the Tiananmen Square debacle.

The same happened when the Soviet pilot defected to Japan with a Foxbat. They couldn't believe it was full of valves (vacuum tubes) in it's avionics bay..But then in the same era Royal Navy ships had them too for the same reason. Easy to replace and not  harmed by EMP.

chefist

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 02:34:21 PM
That's a big generalisation. I am sure you could adduce examples that support you, just as I could find ones that prove the opposite. I think it's silly and counter-productive to pin the attacks on a religion right now, even if there happens to be merit in the argument. Islam exists and we have to live with it, whether we like it or not. You can't smoke 'em all out and kill 'em, even if you wanted to. Telling a large group of people that their beliefs are wicked and evil is not going to help, however true it might be. It will take a lot longer to make an impact, but politicians never think beyond the next headline and so bombing is a panacea for them.

When is ever a good time? All 3 op eds on CNN, notoriously left, were pro Islam and pro refugee acceptance.

I don't remember a single lefty article or op ed defend Christianity when abortion clinics were bombed.

If you have one I'd live to see it.

I agree with Sci Fi...its just simple contrarian politics...

GravitySucks

Quote from: VoteQuimby on November 18, 2015, 12:04:41 PM
With all due respect, I'm having trouble understanding why we're condemning a billion people because of some fucked up cults and gangs in the middle east? It's like condemning Christianity because gang members bling cross necklaces.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about killing the evil mothers fuckers on this planet. But I fail to see what sexually repressed pieces of human shit who play behead the white guy 10,000 miles on the other side of planet have to do with Achmed, the dude who sells me a slurpee when I'm blitzed out of my head at 3 in the morning.

I think all religion is stupid but honestly I'm happy about so many people being in the stone age. Thank christ they're not involving themselves in international economics where they could really fuck some stuff up. They want to blow themselves up every once in awhile because they're sexually frustrated, whatever. These idiots are just islamic versions of social justice warriors.

As soon as I see like a million or so of these billion or so Achmeds in the streets protesting AGAINST Islamic terrorism, I take no pity on any of them.  I have yet to see one Muslim cleric stand up and say "Stop the madness". Openly denounce the tenets of the faith that are evil or go back/stay where you came from.

chefist

Each church, and the Catholic Church as a religion, involved in child molestation was thoroughly investigated by law enforcement and covered by media. The same should happen  to any mosque involved and the religious apparatus of that mosque if they had members involved in terrorism.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 03:37:47 PM
When is ever a good time? All 3 op eds on CNN, notoriously left, were pro Islam and pro refugee acceptance.

I don't remember a single lefty article or op ed defend Christianity when abortion clinics were bombed.

If you have one I'd live to see it.

I agree with Sci Fi...its just simple contrarian politics...

Oh, come on!!!  ::)

You know bloody well that they were carried out by extremists, just as these attacks in Paris were. Try and find me an article that condemns Christianity outright as entirely a bunch of vengeful fanatics and you will have a better case. I am sure these op-eds of yours were just taking a measured approach. Would you rather they advocate mass lynchings? We can pick apart all religions and find unpleasant things in them. I speak as someone who isn't religious and would be quite happy for it all to go away. Do you not see how silly that comparison is?

Don't get sucked into all this left-right stuff. It clouds your judgement.


chefist

Mass lynchings? Good straw man but that won't stick...

Have op eds for both points of view...not just one...

I'll take that challenge on the article...

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/23/does_the_bible_sanction_child_abuse_partner/

albrecht

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 03:37:47 PM
When is ever a good time? All 3 op eds on CNN, notoriously left, were pro Islam and pro refugee acceptance.

I don't remember a single lefty article or op ed defend Christianity when abortion clinics were bombed.

If you have one I'd live to see it.

I agree with Sci Fi...its just simple contrarian politics...
I think it also is cowardice. Certainly much in the media and administration feel that Christianity, Judaism, capitalism, Western Culture etc is the ultimate enemy but also they know it is easy to 'poke fun' of Christians, middle-age white guys, etc. 'Poke fun' at a Muslim and you might get your neck slit or station bombed.

It will be interesting to see if "Anonymous" will really go after ISIS or not. Taking down twitters is one thing but actually get into their bank accounts, who is buying the oil/antiquities/girls, which fifth columnists already in our countries etc. "Anonymous" claimed they were going to after the Cartels (who have been beheading and burning before ISIS was round) and ended the campaign pretty quick after a few bloggers were killed/beheaded.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: SciFiAuthor on November 18, 2015, 03:14:42 PM
It does occasionally happen. I remember Hitchens was after Islam before he died and was calling out others on the left to condemn it too because, well, it's a religion after all and currently the most violent and counterproductive one. I think their general reluctance to condemn just comes from a desire to be contrarian within the context of the old outdated left-right spectrum we're still unfortunately saddled with.

It depends on whether you consider Hitchens as being of the left in his final years. The left certainly saw him as an apostate, and he was very chummy with people life Wolfowitz and was very keen on the War on Terror. His brother Peter, very right-wing, was very anti-war. It gets very confusing when you see all of this as a right-left thing.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 03:37:47 PM
When is ever a good time? All 3 op eds on CNN, notoriously left, were pro Islam and pro refugee acceptance.

I don't remember a single lefty article or op ed defend Christianity when abortion clinics were bombed.

If you have one I'd live to see it.

I agree with Sci Fi...its just simple contrarian politics...


I see, so do religions fall down political lines? It throws up something of a dichotomy as the vermin who attacked Paris are (as are their peers) are acknowledge to have a conservative persuasion. Very much so. 'Lefty' is a lovely pejorative term to use, when it really doesn't mean much in the scheme of things, and can't be used as a catch all to describe anyone with a degree of accuracy. Today at work we had a chat about what has happened in Paris; all present could be described in your terms as 'lefty', as all espouse to a lesser or greater degree socialist principles..

All but one of them were serious in suggesting that the ME should be eradicated of Muslims.. It was pointed out that they weren't only in the ME 'It's a start'. Then suggestions of 'Deport the fucking bastards back to paki land' (Erm, they're not all from Pakistan)...So you see, 'lefty' isn't an accurate moniker unless you can be sure it's applicable. The abortion clinic is a Red Herring; pretty much implying that only wholesome nice girls who vote Rep, eat their greens and go to Church where god loves them don't have abortions; and that only 'lefty' degenerate, fallen, shitty sluts do. Both theories or course are wrong.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 03:51:51 PM
Have op eds for both points of view...not just one...

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in the UK I expect the newspapers to have a political slant. CNN can be totally biased towards a left-wing point of view, if it wants, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If people don't like it they can go watch something else. Your demand for equal time smacks of some commie BS to me. Is this Amurriker? You seem to be all for free enterprise when it suits you.

Eddie Coyle

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 03:55:11 PM
It depends on whether you consider Hitchens as being of the left in his final years. The left certainly saw him as an apostate, and he was very chummy with people life Wolfowitz and was very keen on the War on Terror. His brother Peter, very right-wing, was very anti-war. It gets very confusing when you see all of this as a right-left thing.

    One of the reasons I admired Hitchens writings and persona was that melange of his Leftist background and drift into neo-connery, where he managed to fluster Chomsky/Said, but aggravate his new found rightist audience by lamenting the fall of Allende, etc.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 18, 2015, 03:58:44 PM

I see, so do religions fall down political lines? It throws up something of a dichotomy as the vermin who attacked Paris are (as are their peers) are acknowledge to have a conservative persuasion. Very much so. 'Lefty' is a lovely pejorative term to use, when it really doesn't mean much in the scheme of things, and can't be used as a catch all to describe anyone with a degree of accuracy. Today at work we had a chat about what has happened in Paris; all present could be described in your terms as 'lefty', as all espouse to a lesser or greater degree socialist principles..

All but one of them were serious in suggesting that the ME should be eradicated of Muslims.. It was pointed out that they weren't only in the ME 'It's a start'. Then suggestions of 'Deport the fucking bastards back to paki land' (Erm, they're not all from Pakistan)...So you see, 'lefty' isn't an accurate moniker unless you can be sure it's applicable. The abortion clinic is a Red Herring; pretty much implying that only wholesome nice girls who vote Rep, eat their greens and go to Church where god loves them don't have abortions; and that only 'lefty' degenerate, fallen, shitty sluts do. Both theories or course are wrong.

Lefties love to label...rascists, haters, bullies, micro aggressions...but hate being labeled themselves...

chefist

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 03:59:16 PM
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in the UK I expect the newspapers to have a political slant. CNN can be totally biased towards a left-wing point of view, if it wants, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If people don't like it they can go watch something else. Your demand for equal time smacks of some commie BS to me. Is this Amurriker? You seem to be all for free enterprise when it suits you.

They have the right...just as I do to point out the bias..

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 04:01:36 PM
Lefties love to label...rascists, haters, bullies, micro aggressions...but hate being labeled themselves...

Is that so? That's lefties is it? Not that you label anyone then? I see...your logic is clear.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on November 18, 2015, 04:04:37 PM
Is that so? That's lefties is it? Not that you label anyone then? I see...your logic is clear.

Sure I label...if it walks n quacks like a duck...

albrecht

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 03:59:16 PM
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in the UK I expect the newspapers to have a political slant. CNN can be totally biased towards a left-wing point of view, if it wants, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If people don't like it they can go watch something else. Your demand for equal time smacks of some commie BS to me. Is this Amurriker? You seem to be all for free enterprise when it suits you.
I agree but they should be not receiving any public funds if they have a political slant or bias (like the BBC, NPR, PBS, etc) or take money in the form of commercials from the government (so-called "public service" announcements.)

SciFiAuthor

Quote from: Uncle Duke on November 18, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
Having said that, in the late 80s the US agreed to help the Chinese upgrade one of their fighter aircraft (F-8II/J-8II) with advanced avionics and fire control systems.  The program was known as "Peace Pearl" and the prime contractor was Grumman Aircraft of Long Island, NY.  Since US pilots would be taking part in the flight test program of the upgraded a/c, a team of us were sent to Grumman to conduct what amounted to a "safe to fly" audit of the "green" aircraft and its systems.  I wasn't a EE or avionics guy, but even I was astounded when the Chinese opened electronic bays on the a/c to reveal multiple banks of vacuum tubes.  Even more surprising was how little testing they had done on various systems and their interfaces, yet were flying the fighters operationally.  Luckily, the safety of US pilots was never to become an issue as the program was halted after political differences between the US and PRC resulting from the Tiananmen Square debacle.

The Russians were just as bad. They loved their vacuum tube technology. Especially Roscosmos. RKK Energia didn't finally eliminate tubes from Soyuz until 2010. It wasn't just economics either, if you asked them why they were still using tubes they'd cite Soyuz's safety record.

SredniVashtar

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 03:51:51 PM
I'll take that challenge on the article...

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/23/does_the_bible_sanction_child_abuse_partner/

I said find me an article that demonises Christianity in the way that people want to demonise Islam. All it did was point out a lot of stuff that is shocking about the way children are treated in the Bible and saying that it shouldn't be looked at as a perfect exemplar for how to live our lives. Which sounds fair enough, and the sort of thing people ought to do about Islam. There always seems a tendency to play the victim with this sort of stuff that never quite holds up to scrutiny.

VtaGeezer

Quote from: chefist on November 18, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
Syrians with stolen Greek passports trying to reach US via Honduras...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/18/us-france-shooting-honduras-idUSKCN0T72UE20151118
If you're going to post scary stuff like that, I'm going to have buy Depends Maximum

All they need do send one of their Brit or other Euro mates home and they can buy a ticket to anywhere in the US they want, no visa necessary.  The identified dead ISIS guys are European-born.

chefist

Quote from: SredniVashtar on November 18, 2015, 04:09:32 PM
I said find me an article that demonises Christianity in the way that people want to demonise Islam. All it did was point out a lot of stuff that is shocking about the way children are treated in the Bible and saying that it shouldn't be looked at as a perfect exemplar for how to live our lives. Which sounds fair enough, and the sort of thing people ought to do about Islam. There always seems a tendency to play the victim with this sort of stuff that never quite holds up to scrutiny.

That's my point... Just stand up and denounce a nut from your own group! Don't try to play victim of "prejudice"...

The prosecutions of child molestation in the Catholic church were from Catholics standing up against the Church...mosques should do the same...

SredniVashtar

Quote from: albrecht on November 18, 2015, 04:07:16 PM
I agree but they should be not receiving any public funds if they have a political slant or bias (like the BBC, NPR, PBS, etc) or take money in the form of commercials from the government (so-called "public service" announcements.)

People over here will always claim that the BBC has a left-wing bias. It's almost impossible to present news without opening yourself up to that kind of charge because people are too often irrational about emotional topics and hear what they want to hear. In times of war, for example, what is measured and judicious reporting can be seen as insufficiently patriotic and therefore biased. What people mean when they accuse an organisation of bias is not having the same view as them and reacting against it.

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