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Aviation Thread - News, facts, questions, photos, videos, etc.

Started by Taaroa, June 04, 2017, 09:15:23 AM

Uncle Duke

Quote from: albrecht on May 06, 2019, 09:37:07 PM
Ha. Interesting. Thanks! Uncle what is your "take," to use a Norry term he cribbed from awful sports radio, on KLA 007 (RIP Larry McDonald) and TWA 800 (the latter was during Art's Golden Days so lots of good shows and conversations on air in that regard.)

No doubt in my mind TWA 800 was shot down by terrorists using a MANPAD.  KLA 007 was shot down by the Russians with full knowledge it was a commercial airliner.  I also think there is a good possibility the KAL airplane was carrying intelligence gathering gear (cameras, sigint/elint receivers, etc.) and the Russians knew it.

albrecht

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 06, 2019, 10:04:43 PM
No doubt in my mind TWA 800 was shot down by terrorists using a MANPAD.  KLA 007 was shot down by the Russians with full knowledge it was a commercial airliner.  I also think there is a good possibility the KAL airplane was carrying intelligence gathering gear (cameras, sigint/elint receivers, etc.) and the Russians knew it.
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Thanks Uncle. I also though suspecting on some on WHO was on flight(s)

Uncle Duke

Quote from: albrecht on May 06, 2019, 10:17:50 PM


Just about every commercial flight that goes down has someone of relative note/importance as a passenger.  Even MH370 had a group of engineers who did subcontract work of the NSA who went missing when the plane was lost.  What happens when names of victims are released, conspiracy theorists will identify someone/some group of note, then work backwards to find some nugget to conclude that person/group was targeted. 

Jackstar

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 08:15:16 AM
What happens when names of victims are released, conspiracy theorists will identify someone/some group of note, then work backwards to find some nugget to conclude that person/group was targeted.

What do detectives do?

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 08:17:55 AM
What do detectives do?

Professionally investigate situations to determine if a crime has been committed. 


Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 08:57:37 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8429445/mh370-latest-murder-suicide-pilot/


Adorable.

I can believe that, in fact I think it's the most likely scenario. Very different from a theory an aircraft was shotdown/bombed purposely to kill a specific passenger or passengers. The  Pan Am 747 blown up over Scotland had a UN diplomat and a CIA station chief aboard, conspiracy theories grew out of their deaths. 


Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 09:18:42 AM


Can you point to the loss of a commercial aviation aircraft you believe was targeted/destroyed to kill a specific passenger or passengers?



Jackstar

I guess you should ask for a refund for my professional services.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
I guess you should ask for a refund for my professional services.

You get what you pay for, I guess.

You did peak my curiosity on the Buddy Holly crash.  Of the three musicians and pilot killed in that mishap, who was targeted and why?

You missed the best known example of shooting down a military a/c to kill a high value target:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/killing-yamamoto-how-america-killed-japanese-admiral-who-masterminded-pearl-harbor-attack

albrecht

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
You get what you pay for, I guess.

You did peak my curiosity on the Buddy Holly crash.  Of the three musicians and pilot killed in that mishap, who was targeted and why?

You missed the best known example of shooting down a military a/c to kill a high value target:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/killing-yamamoto-how-america-killed-japanese-admiral-who-masterminded-pearl-harbor-attack
Maybe the "star wackers?" Luckily they allowed Waylon to live for some more decades. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUzZm_2nwkk



Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 10:25:06 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

A military ship, not a commercial aircraft, but which specific US crewman or crewmen were the Israelis trying to kill?

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 10:48:00 AM
Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya said Tuesday that the debris of a flight data recorder from a crashed Japanese Air Self-Defense Force F-35A had been recovered from the Pacific seabed but the storage medium was missing.

Assuming the article is correct, finding "a piece from the canopy" is more interesting to me than finding the FDR.  The canopy on the the JSF is a forward hinged, framed transparency with linear shape charge lines to ballistically cut it in half (think clam shell) at ejection.  Not enough information to determine if the "canopy pieces" are transparency or frame.


https://youtu.be/bz_Pc03Y5zI




albrecht

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 08:48:49 AM
Professionally investigate situations to determine if a crime has been committed.
Like they keep doing with regard to the 1961 DC-6 "crash" that killed Dag  Hammarskjöld?  There also were lots of "theories" about the United 553 crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Ndola_United_Nations_DC-6_crash 





Uncle Duke

Quote from: albrecht on May 07, 2019, 03:12:51 PM
Like they keep doing with regard to the 1961 DC-6 "crash" that killed Dag  Hammarskjöld?  There also were lots of "theories" about the United 553 crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Ndola_United_Nations_DC-6_crash

Yeah, I'm very familiar with the crash that killed Hammarskjord and the then political situation relative to the Congo and Katanga.  Not a commercial flight, but I can see a number of people in Belgium, France, Rhodesia, and South Africa who would have had multiple, mutualistic reasons to want to see him dead.  As you said, however, a number of formal investigations have failed to prove he was assassinated.  Btw, there is a documentary coming out later this year attempting to prove a mercenary Belgian pilot shot down Hammarskjold's a/c with a cannon armed Fouga Magister. 

Don't remember much about the United crash, except it was somehow tied into Watergate. As you probably remember, the media was so anti-Nixon during that time he/his administration got blamed for everytime, so why not a plane crash?

Jackstar

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
a number of formal investigations have failed to prove he was assassinated

Investigations merely produce evidence. Proof comes from a jury.

Uncle Duke

Quote from: Jackstar on May 07, 2019, 04:30:18 PM
Investigations merely produce evidence. Proof comes from a jury.

Not quite.  Jurors determine if evidence presented in a court of law is conclusive enough to prove guilt, what comes from the jury is a verdict. 

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
You get what you pay for, I guess.

You did peak my curiosity on the Buddy Holly crash.  Of the three musicians and pilot killed in that mishap, who was targeted and why?



Bopper all the way.  Like Oswald, he was in radar but unlike Oswald he wouldn't go along with Company plot.  Here is
just saying "No" when told to go to Russia.

albrecht

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 04:41:19 PM
Not quite.  Jurors determine if evidence presented in a court of law is conclusive enough to prove guilt, what comes from the jury is a verdict.
And, assuming we are talking about our legal system, judges, DAs, Grand Juries, and the rules of evidence also determine what "evidence" a jury can be presented and in the way it is done so, if deemed ok to present. Heck, in most cases things don't even go to a trial or a jury but plead-out.

albrecht

Quote from: Uncle Duke on May 07, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
Yeah, I'm very familiar with the crash that killed Hammarskjord and the then political situation relative to the Congo and Katanga.  Not a commercial flight, but I can see a number of people in Belgium, France, Rhodesia, and South Africa who would have had multiple, mutualistic reasons to want to see him dead.  As you said, however, a number of formal investigations have failed to prove he was assassinated.  Btw, there is a documentary coming out later this year attempting to prove a mercenary Belgian pilot shot down Hammarskjold's a/c with a cannon armed Fouga Magister. 

Don't remember much about the United crash, except it was somehow tied into Watergate. As you probably remember, the media was so anti-Nixon during that time he/his administration got blamed for everytime, so why not a plane crash?
I look forward to the Dag documentary but I think after so long? I did see The Guardian came out with that claim. After so many decades, the general chaos on the Dark Continent, and the international intrigues I'm not sure what can be, now, proven. And, as you mention, conspiracy can be, not necessarily so, a cheap attempt for easy answers or a way to, in an odd way, attempt to take back control of one's life or situation- I say odd because it, can be, a way, a reversal of thinking "I'm in control" with an odd comfort in "they" are manipulating or controlling everything. This is not to say that conspiracies don't exist (they are prosecuted everyday) or that "they" aren't manipulating.  ;) But, there also is chaos, random events, outliers, conflagrations of small mistakes, and general screw-ups because people, technology, natural processes, aren't completely predictable, get lazy, or make mistakes. 

With regard to UA 553 it is, sorta, weird, despite the general press theme of anti-Nixon. E Howard Hunt's wife traveling with tons of cash? And a Midwestern Black Representative to Congress killed?

Uncle Duke

Quote from: albrecht on May 07, 2019, 05:16:04 PM
I look forward to the Dag documentary but I think after so long?

I just wanted to see how the guy integrated a cannon, presumably a 20mm, and ammo into a smallish (<5000 lb), wooden frame aircraft operating out of an austere jungle airstrip.


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