Art Bell

[WhiteCrow]

This is going to annoy people who keep seeing this thread turn into some sort of religious debate forum!

My opinion of what you said is that we naturally turn to God because it is in our frame of reference. We can't imagine 'things' without there being a maker, so our first intellectual port of call is to imagine a supra-being who makes all of the stuff we call the world. It's the same sort of thinking that sees UFOs as spaceships when they could just as easily be something that we lack the mental agility or experience to comprehend. I don't think any honest atheist could deny that for all the breakthroughs in science, the universe is a very strange place, but that's not the same thing as saying that the myths that primitive societies have employed to explain this strangeness is literally true.

The "myths of primitive societies" may not be necessary for moral minded atheists, but they are relatively few. Most of mankind are still primitive minded and moral teachings of religions have served the traditional purpose of keeping us from devolving into a "Lord of Flies" society.

Got'a run... And get to church on time.. To support a moral teaching religion institution, that hopefully will keep some of those "primitives" from hunting me down with their modern pointy sticks (guns)

[FightTheFuture]

Didn't one of these luminaries recant on his deathbed?

That was widely rumored about Hitchens, but those rumors were put to rest (excuse the pun) by his widow.

[SredniVashtar]

The "myths of primitive societies" may not be necessary for moral minded atheists, but they are relatively few. Most of mankind are still primitive minded and moral teachings of religions have served the traditional purpose of keeping us from devolving into a "Lord of Flies" society.

Not at all. If any society is going to get very far it would have to be predicated on basic values like respect for others. Religion can't claim credit for that, although it tries to. It doesn't amount to much more than the golden rule - treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.

[SredniVashtar]

That was widely rumored about Hitchens, but those rumors were put to rest (excuse the pun) by his widow.

Even if it was true, I don't think you can put much store on someone in extremis like that. I like the quote from Voltaire when he was dying and was told that he should renounce the devil, and he said, 'this is no time to be making enemies'.

[FightTheFuture]

Even if it was true, I don't think you can put much store on someone in extremis like that. I like the quote from Voltaire when he was dying and was told that he should renounce the devil, and he said, 'this is no time to be making enemies'.

I would argue that the truth shall remain unknown, but to God.

[WhiteCrow]

Not at all. If any society is going to get very far it would have to be predicated on basic values like respect for others. Religion can't claim credit for that, although it tries to. It doesn't amount to much more than the golden rule - treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.

You got your head in the clouds... Who is going teach the modern world primitives these "basic values like respect for others?" Secular schools and one parent families? Yeah right, how's that working out for us? 

[SredniVashtar]

You got your head in the clouds... Who is going teach the modern world primitives these "basic values like respect for others?" Secular schools and one parent families? Yeah right, how's that working out for us?

You're right, we should trust the Catholic church to teach us all about morality. Oh, when they're not buggering little boys of course. I'd rather have my head in the clouds than up my own arse.

[Yorkshire pud]

You got your head in the clouds... Who is going teach the modern world primitives these "basic values like respect for others?" Secular schools and one parent families? Yeah right, how's that working out for us?

Ahhh; so you've established the worlds ills are laid firmly at the door of those two demographs? How does 'respect for others' sit with, I dunno, the family unit of Messrs Blair and Bush Jnr? (Both of whom espouse how 'god' is a great thing) Or doesn't mass murder on civilians using ordnance they have no defence against not count as disrespect?

[Inglorious Bitch]

That was widely rumored about Hitchens, but those rumors were put to rest (excuse the pun) by his widow.

Well, she needed to preserve the brand, otherwise she won't continue to live the life that she has gotten accustomed to. What the actual truth is, may be another issue.

[SredniVashtar]

Ahhh; so you've established the worlds ills are laid firmly at the door of those two demographs? How does 'respect for others' sit with, I dunno, the family unit of Messrs Blair and Bush Jnr? Or doesn't mass murder on civilians using ordnance they have no defence against not count as disrespect?

WORD!!

[SredniVashtar]

Well, she needed to preserve the brand, otherwise she won't continue to live the life that she has gotten accustomed to. What the actual truth is, may be another issue.

That's a load of bollocks. It would have made no difference to her one way or the other. I don't know there has ever been a Brand Hitchens. I don't think you should post and paint your nails at the same time, it sounds like the smell of the varnish has got to your brain.

[FightTheFuture]

You're right, we should trust the Catholic church to teach us all about morality. Oh, when they're not buggering little boys of course. I'd rather have my head in the clouds than up my own arse.

Catholic priests abuse at a rate far lower than that of other males in the general population. And almost all accusations against priests date from decades ago.

Blame the man, not the religion.

[Inglorious Bitch]

That's a load of bollocks. It would have made no difference to her one way or the other. I don't know there has ever been a Brand Hitchens. I don't think you should post and paint your nails at the same time, it sounds like the smell of the varnish has got to your brain.

Listen here you little prat with one "t", "Hitchens" or anyone who gets rich on selling their "viewpoint" is considered a brand. No doubt the widow Hitchens did not want book sales to drop or whatever else is attached to the Hitchens name.

And my nails look impeccable, thank you for asking.

[Yorkshire pud]

Catholic priests abuse at a rate far lower than that of other males in the general population. And almost all accusations against priests date from decades ago.

Blame the man, not the religion.

Not the 'religion' per se, but the established modern religious oppression therein. That oppression extends to the children who were victims of the perpetrators. Families too told to keep their mouths shut, because lets face it, being a good Catholic means not incurring the wrath of god, that all kindly, all benevolent deity who just happens to have the red button to make death very very nasty for the sinners*

*Sinners in this case are those who just happen to let the scales fall from their eyes and realise they've been sold a pup when they saw it to be indoctrination.

[FightTheFuture]

Well, she needed to preserve the brand, otherwise she won't continue to live the life that she has gotten accustomed to. What the actual truth is, may be another issue.

My feeling is, only God knows. I loved Hitch and felt devastated upon his passing. I communicated with him a couple of  times, and he was always utterly humble and gracious. I just delighted in his humor, though I probably disagreed with practically everything he stood for. I had prayed he would find the truth. Maybe he did; maybe he didn`t.

[SredniVashtar]

Catholic priests abuse at a rate far lower than that of other males in the general population. And almost all accusations against priests date from decades ago.

Blame the man, not the religion.

The only reason the accusations are old is because they come from people who are now adults and have finally got their courage together to take these bastards on. The kids (who I am sure are being abused just as enthusiastically now as ever) are still too scared of the reaction from their parents and others, who will probably blame them, or accuse them of lying about these sacred authority figures.

Secondly, I don't think you can say, "oh well, priests are nowhere near as bad as plumbers or dentists". They are placed in a position of trust and statistics mean nothing - they should be spotless, not just slightly better than average. And if they spot a bad apple they should root him out, not shunt him somewhere else and try to hush it up, as the Catholic Church so egregiously did.

The Catholic church mandates that their priests live an unnatural life that stifles their sexual urges and turns them towards fucked up stuff like molesting boys. Is it any wonder that people who live lives of enforced virginity are going to turn out weird? Therefore, it is natural to blame the religion as well as the man.

In other words, you are as wrong as a shit sandwich.

[Inglorious Bitch]

My feeling is, only God knows. I loved Hitch and felt devastated upon his passing. I communicated with him a couple of  times, and he was always utterly humble and gracious. I just delighted in his humor, though I probably disagreed with practically everything he stood for. I had prayed he would find the truth. Maybe he did; maybe he didn`t.

I agree. We are all on a different path. I don't have an issue with Atheists unless they are beating others over the brow with their version of truth. They are not that different from Evangelicals or others who Bible thump. I don't know who is more obnoxious-Jehovah's witnesses or Atheists. At least Jehovah's Witnesses are nice about it.

[FightTheFuture]

The only reason the accusations are old is because they come from people who are now adults and have finally got their courage together to take these bastards on. The kids (who I am sure are being abused just as enthusiastically now as ever) are still too scared of the reaction from their parents and others, who will probably blame them, or accuse them of lying about these sacred authority figures.

Secondly, I don't think you can say, "oh well, priests are nowhere near as bad as plumbers or dentists". They are placed in a position of trust and statistics mean nothing - they should be spotless, not just slightly better than average. And if they spot a bad apple they should root him out, not shunt him somewhere else and try to hush it up, as the Catholic Church so egregiously did.

The Catholic church mandates that their priests live an unnatural life that stifles their sexual urges and turns them towards fucked up stuff like molesting boys. Is it any wonder that people who live lives of enforced virginity are going to turn out weird? Therefore, it is natural to blame the religion as well as the man.

In other words, you are as wrong as a shit sandwich.

And now we know your opinion.

[Yorkshire pud]

I agree. We are all on a different path. I don't have an issue with Atheists unless they are beating others over the brow with their version of truth. They are not that different from Evangelicals or others who Bible thump. I don't know who is more obnoxious-Jehovah's witnesses or Atheists. At least Jehovah's Witnesses are nice about it.

Oh I dunno, I've never had a door slammed in my face because I'm an atheist lol. 

[Inglorious Bitch]

Oh I dunno, I've never had a door slammed in my face because I'm an atheist lol. 

I used to invite them (JW) and the Mormons in and ask them questions that they could not answer. Not to be an a-hole but because I am searching for answers.

[SredniVashtar]

I loved Hitch and felt devastated upon his passing. I communicated with him a couple of  times,

Although the 'communication' usually took the form of, "if you keep hanging around outside my house I'm going to call the police!".

[SredniVashtar]

I don't know who is more obnoxious-Jehovah's witnesses or Atheists. At least Jehovah's Witnesses are nice about it.

Oh just shut the fuck up with this god bullshit and go and make me some bean dip.

[SredniVashtar]

I used to invite them (JW) and the Mormons in and ask them questions that they could not answer. Not to be an a-hole but because I am searching for answers.

That's because the 'questions' took the form of slapping them in handcuffs and locking them in the basement.

[Inglorious Bitch]

Oh just shut the fuck up with this god bullshit and go and make me some bean dip.

Sure thing. My secret ingredient is lots and lots of apple seeds.


(Let me save you the trouble of going to Google. Apple seeds contain trace amounts of arsenic.)

[FightTheFuture]

I agree. We are all on a different path. I don't have an issue with Atheists unless they are beating others over the brow with their version of truth. They are not that different from Evangelicals or others who Bible thump. I don't know who is more obnoxious-Jehovah's witnesses or Atheists. At least Jehovah's Witnesses are nice about it.

That`s the truly great thing about our society: everybody has the right to their own beliefs and expectation of protection of those rights.


I am an unabashed born again Christian. However, I`m perfectly comfortable around just about anybody regardless of what their beliefs, culture, lifestyle, or anything that sets people apart from one another.

[SredniVashtar]

Sure thing. My secret ingredient is lots and lots of apple seeds.


(Let me save you the trouble of going to Google. Apple seeds contain trace amounts of arsenic.)

While your posts contain rather more than trace elements of blithering arse!!

[Inglorious Bitch]

That`s the truly great thing about our society: everybody has the right to their own beliefs and expectation of protection of those rights.


I am an unabashed born again Christian. However, I`m perfectly comfortable around just about anybody regardless of what their beliefs, culture, lifestyle, or anything that sets people apart from one another.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are one of the nice ones. Sadly, in my experience most of the "Evangelical" community is nothing but religious hypocrites who practice the complete opposite of Jesus' teachings, have hatred and anger instead of forgiveness and love in their hearts. They are the modern day Pharasees, of whom Jesus did not approve.

I have met wonderful people of all religions and also atheists. My issue is not with their belief system, but how they act towards others because of said belief system.

[SredniVashtar]

I am an unabashed born again Christian.

Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying: Understatement. Of. Year. The. Fucking.

[Inglorious Bitch]

While your posts contain rather more than trace elements of blithering arse!!

Ugh. You again.

[FightTheFuture]

Although the 'communication' usually took the form of, "if you keep hanging around outside my house I'm going to call the police!".

The Hitch chose to reside in DC, so I assure you, not even the lure of his renown wine cellar could draw me within 3 zip codes of that sweltering cesspool of a town.