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Immigration Bill out of committee

Started by Sardondi, May 22, 2013, 10:00:39 PM

Sardondi

The immigration bill was voted out of the Senate Judiciary committee. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/21/senate-immigration-bill_n_3315271.html On a vote of 13-5 it was supported by all Democrats as well as the "Gang of Eight" RINOs.

The irony of the unprecedented revelations of the nature and extent of abuse of power which are coming in fast and furious (that's still out there too) every day in this Spring of the Trinity of Scandals, is that they are are meaningless if this immigration bill passes in substantially the form it is now.

For its effect will be to establish, by law, the Democrat Party as the irreversibly permanent party in political power. Which is why the Dems care about this bill more than anything else. This will be accomplished by essentially inviting any person from any country around the world to come to America and, with a minimum of effort and paperwork, to choose America's political leaders for them. With the same voting rights as those citizens whose ancestors have been here for 400 years, or those immigrants who have honorably met the current requirements for citizenship, and who have dutifully paid taxes I might add.

If some Dems have their way, millions of illegal aliens will automatically be transformed into voters - Democrat voters, of course, since several Dems have gleefully made plain their intent to promise and deliver all the bread and circuses that this Potemkin economy will allow. Actual citizenship would become a meaningless distinction, since illegal aliens would more or less be invited into the voting booth right away. Citizenship status would become important only for purposes of knowing who to tax to pay for all the largesse the Dems would buy their power with.

If and when this immigration bill or something like it passes, America as it has existed for almost 240 years will pretty much be nothing but a memory. What a travesty.



Yorkshire pud

When all said and done you are the product of immigrants..Even the original 'indigenous' Americans were immigrants. If you're going back only 240 years of entitlement, I can trump that. My family line is likely to be Viking. Vikings are known to have been to North America before Columbus. So I'll be over there in late summer to claim my few square yards, and my entitlement to vote in the government that will be relieving me of my tax payments; only seems fair. Somewhere warmish (for my cold weather toe), not too cold. Nice hills, easily accessible. Not too many dangerous animals. 

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 23, 2013, 01:34:52 AM
When all said and done you are the product of immigrants..Even the original 'indigenous' Americans were immigrants...


It is no longer the way it has been in the past over however many years you want to compare.  The handouts make it different.


Coming here - or anywhere - for a better opportunity is one thing.  We welcome that.  But once here the handouts come too easily and too many people become dependent on them.  And those getting them know good and well which is the party of Big Government and see them as 'helping' them - and vote that way.

What we end up with is more poor people who don't quite receive enough to live a full happy life, and often end up in crime and poverty.  Once dependent, it no longer pays to take low paying jobs at first to move up the ladder, laziness sets in, as does a sense of entitlement.  Then hostility and envy when they realize they are stuck.

We already have too many people in this situation.  We don't need more.  We don't need to tell those already here illegally to go sign up for more benefits.  And vote. 



That is not to say these are not nice people.  They are.  Or hard workers.  They work very hard for the most part.  Or that they are here just for the handouts.  That isn't why they come.  It's our bloated, intrusive government, run by the corrupt, greedy, power hungry, Party of Big Government that manages to even take away the desire for opportunity from too many of these people.


What we should start with is offering temporary work visas to those here illegally and to those who want to come just to work.  Come here and work, pay taxes, go home and take care of family, come back and work.  If any truly want to immigrate, get in line with everyone else, while continuing to come and go on the work visa. 

No immigrants should be getting any handouts until they are citizens, and to receive citizenship people should prove they are self sufficient - I don't know why this isn't clear and obvious to everyone.  I get that the D's want more poor voters, but that is not in the best interest of the country, it's just in the interest of one of the tiresome political parties.



stevesh

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 23, 2013, 01:34:52 AM
When all said and done you are the product of immigrants..Even the original 'indigenous' Americans were immigrants. If you're going back only 240 years of entitlement, I can trump that. My family line is likely to be Viking. Vikings are known to have been to North America before Columbus. So I'll be over there in late summer to claim my few square yards, and my entitlement to vote in the government that will be relieving me of my tax payments; only seems fair. Somewhere warmish (for my cold weather toe), not too cold. Nice hills, easily accessible. Not too many dangerous animals.

Having a hard time imagining a Viking voting Democrat ...

onan

I don't think the influx of immigrants will be a game changer. I think people that come here will by the nature of being human pick and choose their politics similar to others in this country.


I work with a large percentage of people that receive medicaid and ssi. And unlike the personification here it isn't all liberal and "I just want my check" mentality. Many that I work with have a strong desire to be self sufficient and look forward to a day not to be reliant on help from others. And believe it or not some think Obama is the same devil you think he is.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: stevesh on May 23, 2013, 04:41:34 AM
Having a hard time imagining a Viking voting Democrat ...


Me too. Or Republican. In fact I don't imagine the Vikings really cared too much about courting big money as much as the GDP of a small country to get elected..

Quote from: onan on May 23, 2013, 04:55:34 AM
I don't think the influx of immigrants will be a game changer. I think people that come here will by the nature of being human pick and choose their politics similar to others in this country.


I work with a large percentage of people that receive medicaid and ssi. And unlike the personification here it isn't all liberal and "I just want my check" mentality. Many that I work with have a strong desire to be self sufficient and look forward to a day not to be reliant on help from others. And believe it or not some think Obama is the same devil you think he is.

I don't think Medicare and SSI is in the same category - like it or not that's the system and we all pay into it.

slipstream

America's immigration problem is Mexico.  I wouldn't want to live in that miserable country either.  This mass illegal immigration that has been going on for the last couple decades is concentrated from mainly one country, Mexico.  It just feels as though Mexico is being brought to me.  Please tell me I'm wrong, for I very well could be.


Another thing.  The United States of America has let in a large number of Chinese immigrants.  One thing that really narks (Chiefly Australian Slang.  to become annoyed) me is all the Chinese communist flags they wave around.  These Chinese immigrants could at least wave the Kuomintang's flag (the current flag of the People Republic of China on Taiwan).  Ugh, I can't stand it that they wave the "filth of Mao around".  Am I being too sensitive?

Mexican-Americans vote the Democrat ticket overwhelmingly.  Cuban-Americans trend to lean toward the GOP. Unfortunately for the Republican party, the vast majority of Hispanic immigrants (Around 2 out of 3) originate from Mexico.


The Immigration Bill that just cleared committee is one more indicator of Republicans (some, not all) not caring how many poor, uneducated laborers enter the country; as they need them for private business. And, of course, we know the Democrats need them to maintain power. It really is that simple.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: slipstream on May 23, 2013, 06:37:53 AM
America's immigration problem is Mexico.  I wouldn't want to live in that miserable country either.  This mass illegal immigration that has been going on for the last couple decades is concentrated from mainly one country, Mexico.  It just feels as though Mexico is being brought to me.  Please tell me I'm wrong, for I very well could be.


Another thing.  The United States of America has let in a large number of Chinese immigrants.  One thing that really narks (Chiefly Australian Slang.  to become annoyed) me is all the Chinese communist flags they wave around.  These Chinese immigrants could at least wave the Kuomintang's flag (the current flag of the People Republic of China on Taiwan).  Ugh, I can't stand it that they wave the "filth of Mao around".  Am I being too sensitive?


They wave the Chinese flag because it's the Chinese flag. They don't wave the Taiwanese flag because they're not from Taiwan. Any more than an American immigrating to Australia or Canada would get all misty eyed about Barbados. A political regime doesn't define the people's love for the country from where they were born. They don't have an alternative flag of China. Sure some Americans still fly the Confederate flag, but they haven't grown up yet.

slipstream

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 23, 2013, 08:01:37 AM

They wave the Chinese flag because it's the Chinese flag. They don't wave the Taiwanese flag because they're not from Taiwan. Any more than an American immigrating to Australia or Canada would get all misty eyed about Barbados. A political regime doesn't define the people's love for the country from where they were born. They don't have an alternative flag of China. Sure some Americans still fly the Confederate flag, but they haven't grown up yet.
"Taiwan" is not an independent country. The alternate flag for China is the flag of The Republic of China.  You don't understand the political nuance.   [attach=1]


Back in the day I never saw Soviet immigrants waiving around the flag of the USSR.  They would have been ashamed to do so.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: slipstream on May 23, 2013, 08:56:48 AM
"Taiwan" is not an independent country. The alternate flag for China is the flag of The Republic of China.  You don't understand the political nuance.   

Taiwan/China  has caused so much political wrangling and sabre rattling over the years. Depending on who is presently in control of Taiwan. One party is anti PRC, the other pro PRC. 

Quote
Back in the day I never saw Soviet immigrants waiving around the flag of the USSR.  They would have been ashamed to do so.


So they didn't want to wave a USSR flag, maybe because they were Russian, or Ukrainian, or Lithuanian, or Estonian, or Czech, or Slovakian, or Polish... (having worked with Poles, I can assure you most don't have a great opinion of Russia, where the USSR was the hub) All member countries that were no longer part of the USSR after it's break up..China is China.. It has provinces within it, but it's still the same country. It isn't Taiwan. The Chinese politburo might want Taiwan, it doesn't hold that Chinese people do or in fact wish to be identified with it.

slipstream

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 23, 2013, 09:10:47 AM
Taiwan/China  has caused so much political wrangling and sabre rattling over the years. Depending on who is presently in control of Taiwan. One party is anti PRC, the other pro PRC. 


So they didn't want to wave a USSR flag, maybe because they were Russian, or Ukrainian, or Lithuanian, or Estonian, or Czech, or Slovakian, or Polish... (having worked with Poles, I can assure you most don't have a great opinion of Russia, where the USSR was the hub) All member countries that were not part of the USSR after it's break up..China is China.. It has provinces within it, but it's still the same country. It isn't Taiwan. The Chinese politburo might want Taiwan, it doesn't hold that Chinese people do or in fact wish to be identified with it.
I think it says something that they didn't go around waving the Soviet flag.  They were not proud of such a prison country. 


The Chinese government on Taiwan (ROC) even say they are not an independent country.  The official position of the Republic of China (ROC) is that they are the true China, and claim all territories thereof.  If anything the ROC and the PRC have become closer in recent years.  Taiwan is not a country!!!!  Taiwan is what the western media etc have taken to call the ROC out of fear of harming the sensitivities of the Peoples Republic of China.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: slipstream on May 23, 2013, 09:20:16 AM
I think it says something that they didn't go around waving the Soviet flag.  They were not proud of such a prison country. 




Jesus... The Soviet Union wasn't a country. It was the collective of separate countries under the control of a central bureaucracy based in Moscow.. Which is why the countries that went back to being self governed after the collapse of the USSR have to a lesser or greater degree antipathy towards Russia (which was the default name used by many to call the USSR)

Quote
The Chinese government on Taiwan (ROC) even say they are not an independent country.  The official position of the Republic of China (ROC) is that they are the true China, and claim all territories thereof.  If anything the ROC and the PRC have become closer in recent years.  Taiwan is not a country!!!!  Taiwan is what the western media etc have taken to call the ROC out of fear of harming the sensitivities of the Peoples Republic of China.


At the fear of sounding trite; The Chinese people identify themselves as Chinese, not Taiwanese.. You'll have to forgive them if they don't get mixed up in the minutia of political wrangling, and simply feel affection with China, and by extension, it's flag.

slipstream

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on May 23, 2013, 09:31:42 AM

Jesus... The Soviet Union wasn't a country. It was the collective of separate countries under the control of a central bureaucracy based in Moscow.. Which is why the countries that went back to being self governed after the collapse of the USSR have to a lesser or greater degree antipathy towards Russia (which was the default name used by many to call the USSR)
Third party website:
QuoteThe Soviet Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) is a former country which included the modern-day Russian Federation and a number of adjacent states, including the Baltic states (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania), Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and others.


QuoteAt the fear of sounding trite; The Chinese people identify themselves as Chinese, not Taiwanese.. You'll have to forgive them if they don't get mixed up in the minutia of political wrangling, and simply feel affection with China, and by extension, it's flag.


For the last time, Taiwan is not a country.  What you keep referring to as Taiwan is the Republic of China.  At the end of  the Chinese civil war (active fighting) the ROC leaders fled to the island province of Taiwan, where they remain today. 

For quite a long time, the only people that got out of the USSR were Jewish Refuseniks.  They had no reason to wave any flag.

As for the Chinese in China, for the most part they have learned to not be political.  They were not taught much history in school other than the glory of the Party, and they mostly know that's crap.  So coming here and still being proud of being Chinese (and boy are they proud of being Chinese) they fly the Chinese flag.  They aren't equating it with the Socialist Internationale.  Here in San Francisco, some do fly the Taiwanese Republic of China flag, and there is an occasional tiff about the flags.  I think everyone should be flying the US flag.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: slipstream on May 23, 2013, 09:51:35 AM
Third party website:


Yes, which is what I said! What do you think happened before the fall of the Bolsheviks, and the rise of the revolution?


Quote
For the last time, Taiwan is not a country.  What you keep referring to as Taiwan is the Republic of China.  At the end of  the Chinese civil war (active fighting) the ROC leaders fled to the island province of Taiwan, where they remain today.


Well, I guess the Chinese who call themselves Chinese and wave the Chinese flag didn't get the memo that you want them to fly the Taiwanese one.

The immigration bill is about one thing. Cheaper labor for wealthy corporations. The "perm dem majority" is just a sideshow. They want more h1bs too because they can't stomach paying the going rate for American talent, and can't stomach the thought of all their intellectual property getting swiped if they relocate to China. Do they ever stop to think maybe the two are related?

In a time of high unemployment, a government acting to further flood the labor market should be considered criminally negligent. The private labor unions and middle class white-collars should be marching arm-in-arm against this monstrous attempt to further fuck them but they won't, the party politics are too distracting.

onan

Quote from: Jackpine Savage on May 26, 2013, 10:46:18 PM
The immigration bill is about one thing. Cheaper labor for wealthy corporations. The "perm dem majority" is just a sideshow. They want more h1bs too because they can't stomach paying the going rate for American talent, and can't stomach the thought of all their intellectual property getting swiped if they relocate to China. Do they ever stop to think maybe the two are related?

In a time of high unemployment, a government acting to further flood the labor market should be considered criminally negligent. The private labor unions and middle class white-collars should be marching arm-in-arm against this monstrous attempt to further fuck them but they won't, the party politics are too distracting.


On top of that, a flavoring of getting rid of overtime...




Juan

In my city, a local station tried having a liberal talk format for a while.  The national shows were unlistenable, not because of subject matter, but because they had C-grade hosts.  Think Noory level.  But the local shows were quite interesting.  One guy actually bought time opposite Rush for his local show.  He was a lawyer and pro-Union guy, and he talked about a lot of labor and union topics.  It was very interesting to hear the local construction people, both management and labor, call in.  Many of them had Hispanic accents, and almost all deplored the immigration practices because the illegal immigrants were diluting the labor pool and causing trouble for both contractors and labor. 

While I suspect large contractors like getting the cheaper, illegal, labor, the small contractors do not.  Determining whether someone is here legally or not is difficult, and if a small contractor gets caught with illegal workers, it causes a lot of trouble. 

As we learned 40-years ago, "Follow the money."

onan

Quote from: UFO Fill on May 27, 2013, 05:02:04 AM
In my city, a local station tried having a liberal talk format for a while.  The national shows were unlistenable, not because of subject matter, but because they had C-grade hosts.  Think Noory level.  But the local shows were quite interesting.  One guy actually bought time opposite Rush for his local show.  He was a lawyer and pro-Union guy, and he talked about a lot of labor and union topics.  It was very interesting to hear the local construction people, both management and labor, call in.  Many of them had Hispanic accents, and almost all deplored the immigration practices because the illegal immigrants were diluting the labor pool and causing trouble for both contractors and labor. 

While I suspect large contractors like getting the cheaper, illegal, labor, the small contractors do not.  Determining whether someone is here legally or not is difficult, and if a small contractor gets caught with illegal workers, it causes a lot of trouble. 

As we learned 40-years ago, "Follow the money."


If I lived in Central America, I would crawl through my grandmother's colon to get here.


Hiring illegals is a healthy thriving practice in this country. Especially since there is such a downward pressure on costs. Privatising tasks that used to be done by an institution has really helped that along. The hospital I used to work for had their own landscapers. Until new managment decided it was cheaper to hire a company to do it. Now the hospital had fewer benefits to pay. The landscaping business now had a new customer and could hire people willing to work without benefits. Larger companies can hide from illegal hires by hiring a small company that will hire illegals... happens all the time.


Who was the legislater who made the statement "we hired wetbacks all the time"? It is all a game, until we hold everyone to the standard that everyone deserves a stable and safe environment we will continue to have this dynamic.

Quote from: UFO Fill on May 27, 2013, 05:02:04 AM
... Determining whether someone is here legally or not is difficult...


It shouldn't be for an employer.  They are called un-documented for a reason.

Juan

Quote from: Paper*Boy on May 27, 2013, 05:25:21 AM


It shouldn't be for an employer.  They are called un-documented for a reason.
It's not so simple.  I did a video production once for a company that packs pimento peppers.  The company issued about 550 W2 forms a year, most of them for workers who were employed only a couple of months out of the year.  At that time, every hire was required to show a Social Security card - not just give a number.  The employers said the INS (then) came out every year and made numerous arrests - the employees had shown counterfeit Social Security cards.

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