War Birds

[K_Dubb]

It was kind of cool, in kind of a clunky way and actually flew with the Guatemalan airforce until 1956.
Considering that my favorite jet bomber, the B-58 Hustler first flew in 1956, that is pretty amazing.

I like the Hustler, too, but for sheer aesthetics and looking like a Popular Mechanics fantasy the M-50 wins for me.

[albrecht]

I like the Hustler, too, but for sheer aesthetics and looking like a Popular Mechanics fantasy the M-50 wins for me.

Not a war bird but what about just the Concorde? Wtf that we had faster, cooler, commercial travel back then? And even when not as fast stuff like that being able to walk around, bring a flask, have nice stewardesses, or even have a cocktail lounge in some passenger planes? Now it is like walking a gauntlet, or at least not as fun, even if one has TSA easy pass or flying business.

[Uncle Duke]

A total of 742 P-61’s were built, including XP-61 and YP-61 pre-production aircraft, then three production models, the P-61A, P-61B, and the more powerful P-61C. In addition, 36 F-15A photo recon variants were produced. Today, only 3 survive as complete airframes, one is undergoing restoration, and one is known to survive in China.  "   

[/b]

The history of the P-61 in the Chinese museum is something of a mystery.  The US never sold/gave the National Chinese any P-61s, and none were used by USAF against PRC forces in Korea.  Last theory I heard was it was abandoned to the scrap heap by the USAAF in the CBI, probably due some non-combat mishap, and resurrected by the Nationalists as an instructional airframe.  Later, when the Nationalists were forced to flee to Formosa, the P-61 was captured by PRC forces and sent for study by the then fledgling Chinese aviation industry.

[norland2424]

[/b]

The history of the P-61 in the Chinese museum is something of a mystery.  The US never sold/gave the National Chinese any P-61s, and none were used by USAF against PRC forces in Korea.  Last theory I heard was it was abandoned to the scrap heap by the USAAF in the CBI, probably due some non-combat mishap, and resurrected by the Nationalists as an instructional airframe.  Later, when the Nationalists were forced to flee to Formosa, the P-61 was captured by PRC forces and sent for study by the then fledgling Chinese aviation industry.

Is there any record of any P-61 being captured by the Japanese?

[GravitySucks]

For all Mustang fans, this beauty has been on the air show circuit for awhile. It's owned (and was flown for many years) by this retired SAC flyer, who flew with my girlfriend's father during the Cold War: http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/105320/brigadier-general-regis-fa-urschler.aspx

This guy, like the planes he flew, deserves a ton of respect and admiration. He's the pilot in the photo.

He was at Offutt when I got stationed there in 79. Didn't know him personally but used to see him around. One of my roommates was an RC-135 pilot and worked for him.

[Uncle Duke]

Is there any record of any P-61 being captured by the Japanese?

Doubtful, at least not in the sense of overrunning an air field and capturing intact aircraft like they did early in the war.  I suppose they could have recovered a downed aircraft, but that late in the war I find it hard to believe they would have wasted resources to recover/rebuild an aircraft they would have had no chance to get back to Japan for study.

[norland2424]

Doubtful, at least not in the sense of overrunning an air field and capturing intact aircraft like they did early in the war.  I suppose they could have recovered a downed aircraft, but that late in the war I find it hard to believe they would have wasted resources to recover/rebuild an aircraft they would have had no chance to get back to Japan for study.

Well there goes my theory of it being taking to mainland China by the Japanese and abandoned after the war ended 

[Value Of Pi]

He was at Offutt when I got stationed there in 79. Didn't know him personally but used to see him around. One of my roommates was an RC-135 pilot and worked for him.

Ah, very small world. Girlfriend's Dad was an RC-135 navigator, though I believe he was in RB-47s when at Offutt in the '60s. Regis, who I haven't had the pleasure of meeting, was flying his Mustang regularly until quite recently. Age gets to everyone eventually.

I'm amazed at how long Chuck Yeager was able to fly high-performance jets. Dad also admires him, but met him and thought he was an asshole. I love the stories.

[GravitySucks]

I helped certify and train pilots and navigators for 4 years at Plattsburgh AFB. Double KC-135 wings and double FB-111 bomber wings. The FB-111 was bad ass to watch take off at night with full afterburner.

This clip is from Pease AFB in NH. I have lots of slides that I took from the boom operator's view of FB-111's refueling. Some day I will have to scan them.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tVyftMZfgYE

[Value Of Pi]

I helped certify and train pilots and navigators for 4 years at Plattsburgh AFB. Double KC-135 wings and double FB-111 bomber wings. The FB-111 was bad ass to watch take off at night with full afterburner.

This clip is from Pease AFB in NH. I have lots of slides that I took from the boom operator's view of FB-111's refueling. Some day I will have to scan them.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tVyftMZfgYE

Yes, night afterburner takeoffs are the best. Daytime is not too shabby either. I have some nice Tornado takeoff and flyby footage I should post. Can't beat low-level attack jets -- you don't see them coming and you don't get to watch them leave.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

[/b]

The history of the P-61 in the Chinese museum is something of a mystery.  The US never sold/gave the National Chinese any P-61s, and none were used by USAF against PRC forces in Korea.  Last theory I heard was it was abandoned to the scrap heap by the USAAF in the CBI, probably due some non-combat mishap, and resurrected by the Nationalists as an instructional airframe.  Later, when the Nationalists were forced to flee to Formosa, the P-61 was captured by PRC forces and sent for study by the then fledgling Chinese aviation industry.

" There is a P-61A on display at the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Engineering in Beijing, China. I am unaware of its serial number. The story of how it got there is sort of interesting. It seems that the 427th Night Fighter Squadron based in China during the war was in preparation for the return home after the end of hostilities. Just as they were were about to leave, some Communist troops came onto the field and ordered the Americans to get out immediately, but to leave their aircraft behind. The Beijing Institute Black Widow may be one of the three P-61Cs seized at that time. The plane has a plaque on it indicating that the construction number is N1234, which would make it 42-39715. It is reported that the Chinese will sell the plane for 2 million dollars, but the wing spar is reportedly so corroded that the aircraft would collapse if moved. There may be other Black Widows in other locations in China.   "   http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p61_10.html


P-61B-15NO c/n 1234 AAF, S/N 42-39715 is on static display inside the Beijing Air and Space Museum at Beihang University in Beijing, China.

from:  http://www.aviation-history.com/northrop/p61.html   Website last updated: Tue 22 Dec 2015 06:31:55 PM CST

EDIT:

Specs ~

PRIMARY FUNCTION:    Night Fighter
CONTRACTOR:    Northrop Aircraft Inc. of Hawthorne, California
UNIT COST:    $170,000
CREW:    Pilot, Radar Operator, and Gunner
FIRST FLIGHT:    May 21, 1942 (XP-61)
SERVICE DELIVERY:    May 1944 (P-61A)
FIRST OP MISSION:    July 3, 1944 (Europe)
FIRST KILL:    July 6, 1944 (Pacific)
TOTAL PRODUCED:    706 (all variants)  ??
ENGINES:    Two Pratt & Whitney R-2800-65 Double Wasp 18-Cylinder engines rated at 2,250 hp
WING SPAN:    66 Feet
LENGTH:    49 Feet, 7 Inches
HEIGHT:    14 Feet, 8 Inches
MAX. SPEED:    369 MPH (Prior to the C model which bumped the speed up to 425 mph at full military power)
HEIGHT:    14 Feet, 8 Inches
EMPTY WEIGHT:    20,965 lb
MAX. T.O. WEIGHT    34,200 lb
SERVICE CEILING:    33,100 Feet
MAX. RANGE:    1,350 Miles,  (1,900 miles ferry)
RATE OF CLIMB:    2,090 Feet Per Minute
ARMAMENT:    Four 20 mm Hispano M2 cannons, four Browning M2 .50 caliber heavy machine guns,
6,400 lb of bombs or rockets

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Here's a nice little list of USAF aviation museums:  http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Questions/AviationMuseums.aspx

[Uncle Duke]

" There is a P-61A on display at the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Engineering in Beijing, China. I am unaware of its serial number. The story of how it got there is sort of interesting. It seems that the 427th Night Fighter Squadron based in China during the war was in preparation for the return home after the end of hostilities. Just as they were were about to leave, some Communist troops came onto the field and ordered the Americans to get out immediately, but to leave their aircraft behind. The Beijing Institute Black Widow may be one of the three P-61Cs seized at that time. The plane has a plaque on it indicating that the construction number is N1234, which would make it 42-39715. It is reported that the Chinese will sell the plane for 2 million dollars, but the wing spar is reportedly so corroded that the aircraft would collapse if moved. There may be other Black Widows in other locations in China.   "   http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p61_10.html



from:  http://www.aviation-history.com/northrop/p61.html   Website last updated: Tue 22 Dec 2015 06:31:55 PM CST

Yeah, that's another story I've read over the years, but I also remember it being discounted as well.  One USAAF veteran said there is no way they would have left fully operational aircraft to a potential enemy, if nothing else they would have been destroyed from the air later if the Americans had been forced to leave with them in an airworthy condition.  The story would make more sense if the a/c was being used as a can bird and/or was no longer flyable.

Good to see they have moved the a/c indoors.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Doubtful, at least not in the sense of overrunning an air field and capturing intact aircraft like they did early in the war.  I suppose they could have recovered a downed aircraft, but that late in the war I find it hard to believe they would have wasted resources to recover/rebuild an aircraft they would have had no chance to get back to Japan for study.

The P-61's were hard to get parts for and out of service aircraft were scavenged (during the war) to keep the others flying. Here's a sad post I came across regarding the P-61 and Japan. Another MIA.

" Kevin, 31.01.2011

On the night of August 4, 1945, my uncle (Lt. Henry Lee Gurley, Pilot) took off from Kadena Field Okinawa in a P-61B-15 (42-39591)on a mission to 36 Kyushr Japan (city of Kanoya?). Neither he, nor his crew, were ever heard from again. Does anyone out there know of him?  "

From:  http://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/northrop_widow.php?p=1

Another one from that page...   My kind of Air Crew. 

"  T. Howe, 07.12.2010

My uncle flew P-61's out of India late in WWII. He said it was a great beer cooler. The crew chief would sling two or three cases of 3.2 beer under the fuselage in a tight cargo net. A quick trip to 30,000 ft and back and there was ice cold beer for everyone - a real treat in the Indian Jungle. "

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Yeah, that's another story I've read over the years, but I also remember it being discounted as well.  One USAAF veteran said there is no way they would have left fully operational aircraft to a potential enemy, if nothing else they would have been destroyed from the air later if the Americans had been forced to leave with them in an airworthy condition.  The story would make more sense if the a/c was being used as a can bird and/or was no longer flyable.

Good to see they have moved the a/c indoors.

Those were my first thoughts too, but who knows. I've seen more valuable stuff abandoned on base commanders' orders. :
I doubt it was airworthy if they left it. Night fighting duties and bomber escort were being allotted to the P-51 and other fighters. Parts were hard to come by, and the armaments were more than likely striped long before they were abandoned.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Here's a few virtual tour pics of the 61.

[Uncle Duke]

Those were my first thoughts too, but who knows. I've seen more valuable stuff abandoned on base commanders' orders. :
I doubt it was airworthy if they left it. Night fighting duties and bomber escort were being allotted to the P-51 and other fighters. Parts were hard to come by, and the armaments were more than likely striped long before they were abandoned.

OK, so we are saying the same thing. "Can bird" is what maintainers call an a/c being cannibalize for parts to keep other a/c airworthy.  If the a/c left behind had been stripped of usable spares, then this story lines up with the story I mentioned I read earlier.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

OK, so we are saying the same thing. "Can bird" is what maintainers call an a/c being cannibalize for parts to keep other a/c airworthy.  If the a/c left behind had been stripped of usable spares, then this story lines up with the story I mentioned I read earlier.

10-Roger.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

The Horten HO 229 never made it into combat, but it was the worlds first jet stealth aircraft.  Here's a page with good information and modelling tips.
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/Horten-Ho229.html

   

[Unquenchable Angst]

My father's group on Saipan, B-29's

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WMB0CT3b5M

Heh, heh, heh.
Want the blueprints and test results ?
Check the other links on this page too. They claim to be the largest Black Projects FOIA site on the web.
http://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/project-1794-saucer-type-aircraft/

[trostol]

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Cool. The crew of the Belle.

[GravitySucks]

Not good news

http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/23/f-35-bursts-into-flames-on-the-runway/

[Walks_At_Night]

So last week we kicked the thread off with America's first mono-wing pursuit plane - the Boeing P-26 Peashooter.

Following along chronologically that brings us to this weeks Warbird - the Seversky P-35.  Less then 200 were ever
built and it looks a little ungainly but it is important for two reasons.  1) It was the first all metal, enclosed cockpit
fighter with retractable landing gear that the US Army Air Corp would be equipped with   2) It's DNA would live on and
it's grandson would become a truly formidable aircraft.

The P-35 would soon be replaced by other aircraft but a few did see limited combat early on in the war in the Philippines.

Any more thoughts on the P-35?

[Walks_At_Night]

[pate]

Cool thread!

I shall double post an affair that is long past the statute of limits (mainly due to draconian rulz about attachment sizes on this awforum...)

[pate]

Apogees 'bout derple-derp'n'stuff.

I neither conform nor deny my identical.

[pate]

Not a war bird but what about just the Concorde? Wtf that we had faster, cooler, commercial travel back then? And even when not as fast stuff like that being able to walk around, bring a flask, have nice stewardesses, or even have a cocktail lounge in some passenger planes? Now it is like walking a gauntlet, or at least not as fun, even if one has TSA easy pass or flying business.

When you could wait as long as politeness dictated and smoke a stooge, or coffin-nail without overtly fumigating the precious-shared-air cabean?  Mmm.  I'd fly moar eagerly and often if there were commercial "smoking-only" flights.  Ah, the decadesense, mmm.

[pate]

[/b]

The history of the P-61 in the Chinese museum is something of a mystery.  The US never sold/gave the National Chinese any P-61s, and none were used by USAF against PRC forces in Korea.  Last theory I heard was it was abandoned to the scrap heap by the USAAF in the CBI, probably due some non-combat mishap, and resurrected by the Nationalists as an instructional airframe.  Later, when the Nationalists were forced to flee to Formosa, the P-61 was captured by PRC forces and sent for study by the then fledgling Chinese aviation industry.

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/jets/new-chinese-stealth-fighter-photos-emerge

Hmm, perhaps the first instance of the phrase I heard oftenly "Chinese Blueprint" citation needed, or didna happeen.  Heh, whar's that narwhale YP?  Mein Gott, what the commies could assemble from carefully shredded scrap metal.  Muahaha

ediot2politics:  say nuffin 'bout lawst Alamos 20MB (?) Hard-drives back in the roarin' '90's...  Apogees.