Double Binds, Damned If You Dos, & Catch-22s

[Camazotz Automat]

Inspired by Zircon, McPhallus, myself, et al, on the John B. Wells thread.

While it's topic worthy to me, I don't know if it will grow legs.

Eddie Coyle recently mentioned the asshole factor of State Troopers.

When one of these fine civil servants pulls me over and asks, "Did you know you were speeding?" how the fuck am I supposed to answer that? He'll have a smart ass answer no matter what I say. It's an exercise in frustration.

[Ben Shockley]

What about when the steroid-pumped kevlar-vest-wearing motherfucker stands there behind your shoulder (where your even turning to see him will be considered a "threatening gesture") with his hand on his pistol and asks you why you're nervous...

"Exercise in frustration?"  No, it's an exercise in getting symbolically and emotionally raped.  The bastard knows it and is getting off on it.
One more reason why I say that wanting to be a cop ought to be automatic disqualification from getting to be one.

[Camazotz Automat]

One more reason why I say that wanting to be a cop ought to be automatic disqualification from getting to be one.

Already a good, if non existent, example of a Catch-22.

Similarly, the questionable "motivation" of some, not all, of those young men overly anxious to sign up for the Army, anticipating, "lots of action." Killers in training or patriots?

And not to focus on law enforcement too much, but I am always amused when they publicly "ask for help" on a case via the media and ask for someone/anyone to "come forward" despite the documented phenomenon of many criminals "wanting to assist" in the investigation.

If I volunteer to help search for a missing little girl in my rural area, I have to consider I may be placed on a shadow list of some sort if she is not found.  But if I am asked to help, and refuse, well, I might as well have the body in the crawlspace.

"Exercise in frustration?"  No, it's an exercise in getting symbolically and emotionally raped.  The bastard knows it and is getting off on it.

Well, when you put it that way.  If you had to choose, would you rather be pulled over by Alex or George?

[Ben Shockley]

Re my assertion that wanting to be a cop ought to be automatic disqualification from getting to be one.

Already a good, if non existent, example of a Catch-22.

Not to take you too far from the identification of quandaries, but no: not a "catch 22" at all.
I think cops should be nominated by community draft, then voted into office.  Every officer, not just the chief or sheriff.   They would be thus drafted for a fixed period, and very well compensated for any interruption of their careers.   That way, you get only people who are known and well-regarded by the community, not marginal bastards with some axes to grind.   In large-enough towns and cities, officers would be nominated and voted-on by district, thus (one hopes) reflecting the demographic diversity of the community.
Back to you, cam.

[stevesh]

One more reason why I say that wanting to be a cop ought to be automatic disqualification from getting to be one.

I'll agree with that, and your method of selecting law enforcement officers the way you suggest would help, but I hope one will be able to do a 'Sherman' and refuse that nomination. I don't want to be a pig, no way, no how.

I think the same method should be used for congresspeople and US presidents, for the same reason.

[Camazotz Automat]

Re my assertion that wanting to be a cop ought to be automatic disqualification from getting to be one.Not to take you too far from the identification of quandaries, but no: not a "catch 22" at all.

I think cops should be nominated by community draft, then voted into office.  Every officer, not just the chief or sheriff.   They would be thus drafted for a fixed period, and very well compensated for any interruption of their careers.   That way, you get only people who are known and well-regarded by the community, not marginal bastards with some axes to grind.   In large-enough towns and cities, officers would be nominated and voted-on by district, thus (one hopes) reflecting the demographic diversity of the community.
Back to you, cam.

To me it's a Catch 22 from the perspective that if you are the person wanting to be a cop, but then you are told your desire disqualifies from you being one, then you become frustrated from the paradox and you realize you can't win.  Winning defined as your success at getting the job as cop. But tell me what you're thinking.

Or do you mean, if your drafting suggestion were in place THEN it would not be a Catch-22 puzzle?

As far as your draft nomination voting scenario, I do find that intriguing. I don't know how it would go over in large areas, but it would go over well here, depending on the compensation.

We had a big problem I won't go into too much detail about, but it resulted in several cops being terminated simultaneously due to their bullying members of a quiet, small community. At some point, they had bullied the mayor and the mayor cut them mercilessly. It was goddamned beautiful. (as you can guess, I had already had my own encounters with the armed nitwits.)

The media got a hold of it and tried to imply we were no longer "safe" after the firings. The truth is, we had too many and the ones we had were not fighting criminal activity, they were not from this area at all, and were pulling over grannies and such.  They were harassing people for petty bullshit.  Fortunately, it was remedied.  And when it was, I never heard so many "hero types" whining about how it was "unfair" they were fired.  At least one of these assholes knowingly accepted an award for saving someone's life when in REALITY, it was a postal carrier who saved the life.  I was right in the middle of it as far as knowing those involved.  The local rag refused to print the truth, despite the local postmaster telling them what happened.

Back to you Ben.

[Camazotz Automat]

I'll agree with that, and your method of selecting law enforcement officers the way you suggest would help, but I hope one will be able to do a 'Sherman' and refuse that nomination. I don't want to be a pig, no way, no how.

I think the same method should be used for congresspeople and US presidents, for the same reason.

Given all the above, in order to "refuse", you would merely have to tell them how badly you have been wanting to be a cop, at which point, you would be quickly disqualified.

[onan]

I don't like paying fines. But if a cop asks you "if you know how fast you were going?" the person responsible for putting you in that spot is you.

As to a community vote... maybe in a perfect world. I have seen too many communities that would throw someone under a bus for having a lawn with 3 inch grass when the community standard is 2.5 inches. I dunno what the perfect answer is but in the US many communities are more punitive than the officers that patrol them.

The only hypocritical, perhaps catch 22 that gets under my skin is the hero-one-day and can't-get a-a-job-the-next returning home military.

[PB the Deplorable]

... we had too many and the ones we had were not fighting criminal activity, they were not from this area at all, and were pulling over grannies and such...

Motorcycle cops are the worst, doesn't matter if they are state patrol, local, whatever.  Their only function I can figure out is to give out the chickenshit tickets even the regular cops don't have time for. 

As far as the cops not fighting crime, I think most of them are cowards and bulies, mostly there for the pensions and early retirement, they much prefer harassing people on their way home from work than dealing with actual criminals.

[Camazotz Automat]

I dunno what the perfect answer is but in the US many communities are more punitive than the officers that patrol them.

I'm getting it from all sides... the community, the cops, the senile next door neighbor who keeps calling 911 and reporting I'm from Mars because she doesn't know what a giant Tesla coil is nor what it is doing in my backyard.

Shit. I think I just completely derailed my own topic. Uncool, Cam. Uncool.

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[Harmness]

I just want to pile on with some cop hate.  Chickenshit pigs.

[Ben Shockley]

Thanks for the feedback on my idea, folks.   And I really apologize, Cam, for contributing to the derailment of the enumeration of quandaries.   Now, for a couple of things:
Stevesh, of course we can have waivers for people who just don't want to do it.   We don't want people in a job they resent.   After all-- we know what you get then: "Coast" in the Noory regime!!

...I think most [cops] are cowards and bulies, mostly there for the pensions and early retirement, they much prefer harassing people on their way home from work than dealing with actual criminals.

I agree almost totally, except I have to emphasize that I think a good portion of them are there in order to be bullies; they get off on pushing people around.
I think that aspect is more prominent in small towns, but I admit that that opinion is personal and anecdotal.  I really think that a lot of small-town cops are local kids from the "wrong side of town" who are working out some resentment on the town; I admit that it's paradoxical how such "wrong side" folks seem to consistently get the job, but my sociological mind is working on it 
The coward  part: that's cops everywhere.  Every time some unarmed innocent kid or working schmo on his way home is loaded down with 5 cops' full pistol magazines, we hear how the cops HAD TO unload on him/her because they were (say it with me!) "in fear for their lives."
God DAMN!!  If I was THAT scared of my fellow citizens, I just wouldn't leave the house.  If I was that nervous and scared shitless, I wouldn't be carrying a gun in public.  Yet none of these mo fos ever gets prosecuted.  These "in fear for their lives" bastards need to find another line of work, like working a forestry service fire tower, far away from us menacing citizens!

[b_dubb]

How's this for a double-blind study: send five "paranormal" investigators to ten different spots ... only one of which is "paranormal". after they finish gathering their evidence run a statistical analysis to we if there was significantly more paranormal events at the paranormal spot than the others

[Jasmine]

Elementary, middle, and high school teachers (the good ones) who are praised for educating our children. Their profession is deemed a 'noble ' one by society at large. These men and women who empower their pupils with arguably the greatest gift - education - yet many work within horrible, negative enviornments and are heaped with verbal and physical abuse from students and parents. Many work with sub-standard or little in the way of school materials, and many of these teachers pay out of their pocket to procure said supplies in order to teach their respective curriculum to an ever growing number of apathetic, ignorant and arrogant students. While we glorify the sports athlete and place him/her on a MSNBC pedestal and renumerate them to the tune of millions and tens of millions of dollars for playing like good little boys and girls yet who are (in many instances) rewarded for their incorrigible temperament, yet our teachers (in many cases) can barely make ends meet and face constant pay cuts and school board cutbacks whilst dealing with the same juvenile and incorrigible temperament in their classrooms.

[onan]

Elementary, middle, and high school teachers who are praised for educating our children. Their profession is deemed a 'noble ' one by society at large. These men and women who empower their pupils with arguably the greatest gift - education - yet who in turn earn meager salaries, are heaped with verbal and physical abuse from students and parents. Many work with sub-standard or little in the way of school materials, and many of these teachers pay out of their pocket to procure said supplies. While we glorify the sports athlete and place him/her on a MSNBC pedestal and renumerate them with millions and tens of millions of dollars for playing like good little boys and girls, our teachers (in many cases) can barely make ends meet and face constant pay cuts and school board cutbacks.

Forgive me I turn everything political.

Romney said of Obama,

“he wants another stimulus, he wants to hire more government workers. He says we need more fireman, more policeman, more teachers. Did he not get the message of Wisconsin? The American people did. It’s time for us to cut back on government and help the American people.”

I see several families in crisis every week. Many times the crisis is directly related to very poor parenting skills. Which directly or indirectly leads many adolescents into poor school performance. Many of these parents place the blame of their child's poor performance on the teachers. Teachers get hit on both sides of the issue. Students that are problematic in class and often derail a class, then is often also expected to resolve emotional issues.

I can't wrap my head around any reasons for wanting to teach in any high school in the current state of education.

[Jasmine]

Forgive me I turn everything political.

Quite alright with moi.

Romney said of Obama,
I see several families in crisis every week. Many times the crisis is directly related to very poor parenting skills. Which directly or indirectly leads many adolescents into poor school performance. Many of these parents place the blame of their child's poor performance on the teachers. Teachers get hit on both sides of the issue. Students that are problematic in class and often derail a class, then is often also expected to resolve emotional issues.

I can't wrap my head around any reasons for wanting to teach in any high school in the current state of education.

Your summation of the critical condition of the  American student is an apt one. I concur. The education system lies in utter shreds, and responsibility must be shared by myriad of groups.  As for the likes of Romney and Obama, in my humble opinion  it matters not who the candidate is, for we're dealing with the proverbial two-headed monster. The person eligible to cast a vote, and does, is not paying attention to the man hiding behind the curtain; we're all in Oz.  We're also in the midst of stagnate flotsam; we're far too dependent on governments solving our ills, for they care not a whit (and never have) and yet this circus of candidates, political conventions, shallow rhetoric and personal agendas continues anabated, as does the naivety and close-mindedness. With Romney/Ryan in particular, I'm genuinely frightened and angry at the course of direction that is being taken. As my father always says, those who are of sound and gifted mind to enter the polticial arena and flourish and bring about a voyage away from the national malaise have the good sense to stay well and far away.

[onan]

Although my post pointed the finger at romney the real target is anyone who believes we need fewer teachers.

[Jasmine]

Although my post pointed the finger at romney the real target is anyone who believes we need fewer teachers.

I identified that. I as well concur with your opinion about the men and women of the military who are proclaimed heroes and the backbone of this (or any other) nation, yet who are conveniently out of sight-out of mind - both abroad in the war theatre and in their home and native lands. Disgusting beyond comprehension.

Perhaps we can find wisdom and the answers in the Marx Brothers' film, 'Duck Soup'? Wouldn't that be an unsettling irony?

[ziznak]

Here's a little something in the way of the teachers plight.  Why is it that the people we pay the least are the ones who prepare the food we put in our bodies and the ones who take care of our kids while we work?  Wouldn't it be great to require a food preparation license and a child-care license for these workers and require them to actually be of a certain standard that they could make more money and I wouldn't have to eat mayo on my sandwich because I never send shit back for the fear that some dickhead is gonna rub his nuts on my food... phew... take a breath... sorry.

Most important is the child care thing...  I despise the fact that every month or so I see some messed up story about abuse in a day-care facility.  These days with so many one parent homes and 2-working parent situations the need for good child care is paramount.

[Jasmine]

Here's a little something in the way of the teachers plight.  Why is it that the people we pay the least are the ones who prepare the food we put in our bodies and the ones who take care of our kids while we work?  Wouldn't it be great to require a food preparation license and a child-care license for these workers and require them to actually be of a certain standard that they could make more money and I wouldn't have to eat mayo on my sandwich because I never send shit back for the fear that some dickhead is gonna rub his nuts on my food... phew... take a breath... sorry.

Most important is the child care thing...  I despise the fact that every month or so I see some messed up story about abuse in a day-care facility.  These days with so many one parent homes and 2-working parent situations the need for good child care is paramount.

Excellent train of thought, ziznak. And if we are unfortunate and doomed to have Romney, the Mormon Ardvark Ratnik, and his devil-in-disguise sidekick, Paul Ryan - asshole incarnate, in the White House, then child care and criticial education policies (and their continuing implementation) will go the way of the DoDo. Their highly offensive and 19th Century proposed total abortion ban (even in the cases of rape, incest, or health danger posed to mother or child) offends me and infuriates me to no end. Some say the third factor mentioned (health danger) is not on their plate re ban but I've heard and read otherwise. Church is NOT separated from State where these neanderthal life forms are concerned.  Pertinent child care issues and education issues are on their collective windshield - to them these issues are bird droppings and they wish to wipe them off. To Romney and Ryan, women are third class citizens who have no voice, and they wish to choose for women what they feel is in their best interests. And what will we have? Back street/alley abortions with coat hangers.

I wonder how Romney and Ryan, and that other asshole, Senator Akin, who made the incendiary comments about rape victims, would feel if, Buddha forbid, their daughters and granddaughters became pregnant as a result of being raped. They'd be no doubt quietly whisked off to a private clinic...

Then again, when all is said and done, it's all about positive self-empowerment where women and men are concerned - making the correct and sensible and logical choices in life - living up to and facing the daily reality and heavy responsibilities as a result of those choices. Sadly, that is not within the reach of far too many.

Sorry about the political rant, but these three ASSHOLES and their team and what they represent makes my blood BOIL.

And Ann Romney can go flush herself down the toilet.

[onan]

I wish I were as eloquent as Will McAvoy:

Ideological purity, compromise as weakness, a fundamentalist belief in scriptural literalism, denying science, unmoved by facts, undeterred by new information, a hostile fear of progress, a demonization of education, a need to control women’s bodies, severe xenophobia, tribal mentality, intolerance of dissent and a pathological hatred of the U.S. government.

[…]

They can call themselves the Tea Party. They can call themselves conservatives and they can even call themselves Republicans, though Republicans certainly shouldn’t. But we should call them what they are. The American Taliban.”

[Jasmine]

Oh, and before I forget, the wonderful Senator Todd Akin believes that breast milk can cure homosexuality. Perhaps Akin can get together with batshit crazy Michelle Bachmann, grab the nearest God fearing Christian fundamentalist gal who's lactating, and try this experiment on Michelle's husband.

http://dailycurrant.com/2012/08/26/todd-akin-claims-breastmilk-cures-homosexuality/

One either laughs or laments.

And if anyone can't catch the double binds, damned if you dos or Catch-22's in all this then I'll be damned.

UPDATE: Apparently, this story is a hoax. And the link I posted is to the Daily Currant!  LOL!

*Jasmine sits in the corner and places her DUNCE cap on her head*

[Jasmine]

By the way, does anyone else see the resemblance between Paul Ryan and Eddie Munster?

[Marc.Knight]

Although my post pointed the finger at romney the real target is anyone who believes we need fewer teachers.

We also need more learners.

[Marc.Knight]

I'm getting it from all sides... the community, the cops, the senile next door neighbor who keeps calling 911 and reporting I'm from Mars because she doesn't know what a giant Tesla coil is nor what it is doing in my backyard.

Shit. I think I just completely derailed my own topic. Uncool, Cam. Uncool.

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Cover it up with a tarp...the coil, not the neighbor.

[Eddie Coyle]

We also need more learners.

Absolutely. They're approaching endangered species status.