Richard Syrett

[zeebo]

So, what's the most popular language these days? 

These days I'm out of the loop, no pun intended ... But I think variants of C are still important esp. for low-level code requiring efficiency, Java is still big in some quarters, but I think the overall general popular one is Python (which I like alot, as it sort of mixes the elegance of Java w/ the practicality of Perl imho).  Btw Python is very easy to pick up and start playing with, esp. since it's interpreted so you can write it in-line against a command line and see it run in real time which is fun and good for experimenting.

[GravitySucks]

I thought Barry usually only called in to talk to his 'good friend' George.  I wonder if he's still trying find Cornelius' phone number lol.

Oh man. I heard that party line call live. Cornelius must have been freaked.

[Dr. MD MD]

I thought Barry usually only called in to talk to his 'good friend' George.  I wonder if he's still trying find Cornelius' phone number lol.

Seemed like a JC type almost.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

ha yeah there's asterisks, slashes, pound signs, etc., but my fave was the old DOS "REM" tag for "REMOVE".   :

LOL - Yeah, another reason to despise M$. 

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

COBOL had a "Debug level" parameter. You could format your debug print statements in a certain fashion and then turn them on and off during runtime. That was pretty handy.

Sounds cool. I didn't start into programming until everything was going , or had already gone to OOP. So I was lucky in the fact that I learned on full blown IDE's with decent debuggers.

[GravitySucks]

I still remember one line of code I wrote in the Air Force

PERFORM DELETEDIRECTORYRECORDS THROUGH DELETEDIRECTORYRECORDSEXIT VARYING DIRECTORYRECORDSINDEX FROM 1 BY 1 UNTIL DIRECTORYRECORDSDELETED. 


How much clearer could you be?

Actually there were paragraph numbers and either dashes or underscores, but I can't remember the syntax right now.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

So, what's the most popular language these days? 

Depends on who you work for.    Seriously, it just depends on who you work for and who's gong to be maintaining the code. There is always a demand for JAVA, and C# developers though. If you want to program games, learn C++. (The gamers market is a bitch to get into though, just because so many people want to do it.) C++ is also some of the fastest running code.

[Dr. MD MD]

The thing is we are traveling through time, just forward at the given rate. We just want to figure out how to travel in both direction and beyond the given rate. How hard can that be?! 

[GravitySucks]

The thing is we are traveling through time, just forward at the given rate. We just want to figure out how to travel in both direction and beyond the given rate. How hard can that be?! 

And if you speed up you slow down...

[zeebo]

Here's a funny coding story I heard about once.  There was some super-complicated graphics routine for a role-playing game of some sort.  At the very end of some ten thousand lines of code was this single line:

Set x = -x

Above it was this comment:

I don't know why I need to do this, but if I don't, the people are upside down

[Dr. MD MD]

Depends on who you work for.    Seriously, it just depends on who you work for and who's gong to be maintaining the code. There is always a demand for JAVA, and C# developers though. If you want to program games, learn C++. (The gamers market is a bitch to get into though, just because so many people want to do it.) C++ is also some of the fastest running code.

Oh, I'm not trying to get into any markets. Just curious. 

Do people still code in assembly language? Most programmers I met said they'd usually end up going there because programs ran faster but that was back in the 90s.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

I still remember one line of code I wrote in the Air Force

PERFORM DELETEDIRECTORYRECORDS THROUGH DELETEDIRECTORYRECORDSEXIT VARYING DIRECTORYRECORDSINDEX FROM 1 BY 1 UNTIL DIRECTORYRECORDSDELETED. 


How much clearer could you be?

Actually there were paragraph numbers and either dashes or underscores, but I can't remember the syntax right now.

I like the increment syntax; elegant.

[GravitySucks]

Here's a funny coding story I heard about once.  There was some super-complicated graphics routine for a role-playing game of some sort.  At the very end of some ten thousand lines of code was this single line:

Set x = -x

Above it was this comment:

I don't know why I need to do this, but if I don't, the people are upside down

Looks like a comment I put in once. I had a date/number of days computation program that ran perfect in pascal on a PC. I rewrote it in PL/1 for the mainframe. Every line of logic code was identical, but on the mainframe, I had to add 1 at the end. Never did figure it out. It stayed that way from STS-27 through the end of the shuttle program.

[GravitySucks]

I like the increment syntax; elegant.

Yeah, until you had to maintain some moron's code that liked to start at 0 and vary it by 10.

[GravitySucks]

Oh, I'm not trying to get into any markets. Just curious. 

Do people still code in assembly language? Most programmers I met said they'd usually end up going there because programs ran faster but that was back in the 90s.

There are times you need assembler, like low level device drivers, and maybe a sort or hashing algorithm if you are really going for speed, but most of that can be done in C.

[GravitySucks]

Well, night y'all. Enjoyed it.

[zeebo]

Looks like a comment I put in once. I had a date/number of days computation program that ran perfect in pascal on a PC. I rewrote it in PL/1 for the mainframe. Every line of logic code was identical, but on the mainframe, I had to add 1 at the end. Never did figure it out. It stayed that way from STS-27 through the end of the shuttle program.

Great story!  The old off-by-1 error, a bane of code I've encountered much.  I will always hate visual basic for having 1-based arrays.  It always screwed me up after 0-based everywhere else.

[zeebo]

Yes good time all, time travel & code-slinging tales, nice combo. 

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Oh, I'm not trying to get into any markets. Just curious. 

Do people still code in assembly language? Most programmers I met said they'd usually end up going there because programs ran faster but that was back in the 90s.

Oh hell yes. Actually, assembly makes more sense to me. Visual Studio (Microsoft) has integrated the ability to run inline assembly and even java into the MSIL.
Most programmers write what are known as high-level languages - C, java, python, COBOL, etc. Assembly is considered a medium level language. Not quite Binary (Low level lang.), but not a high level lang. either.  And yes, it runs extremely fast. There have been some attempts at making a purely assembly operating system too. The project was abandoned (I think), but you can still download it, burn it, and run it as a live distro. Fast isn't the word, instantaneous is closer. I forget the name offhand, but I'm sure I found it on distro-watch. It was incomplete, but it ran.
Pretty cool actually.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Yeah, until you had to maintain some moron's code that liked to start at 0 and vary it by 10.

LMFAO   

OMG - I think we've all run into that asshole. 

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Had a good time tonight guys.   Thanks.
Catch everyone on the flip side. 

[GravitySucks]

Oh hell yes. Actually, assembly makes more sense to me. Visual Studio (Microsoft) has integrated the ability to run inline assembly and even java into the MSIL.
Most programmers write what are known as high-level languages - C, java, python, COBOL, etc. Assembly is considered a medium level language. Not quite Binary (Low level lang.), but not a high level lang. either.  And yes, it runs extremely fast. There have been some attempts at making a purely assembly operating system too. The project was abandoned (I think), but you can still download it, burn it, and run it as a live distro. Fast isn't the word, instantaneous is closer. I forget the name offhand, but I'm sure I found it on distro-watch. It was incomplete, but it ran.
Pretty cool actually.

Here is a textbook example of when assembler is lightning fast compared to a high level language.

You use the XOR (exclusive OR) operator 3 times and it swaps the values of two variables. This is often used in bubble sort routines. The fact that the data values are already in registers makes this the most efficient way in both speed and memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_swap_algorithm

Edit: reading the article, it appears that modern parallel processing architectures negate the fact that this USED to be the most efficient.

[(Sandman) Logan-5]

Here is a textbook example of when assembler is lightning fast compared to a high level language.

You use the XOR (exclusive OR) operator 3 times and it swaps the values of two variables. This is often used in bubble sort routines. The fact that the data values are already in registers makes this the most efficient way in both speed and memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_swap_algorithm

Edit: reading the article, it appears that modern parallel processing architectures negate the fact that this USED to be the most efficient.

You might find this very recent article interesting. 

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1182676/Need-for-Speed-Cplusplus-versus-Assembly-Language

[zeebo]

Here is a textbook example of when assembler is lightning fast compared to a high level language.

Yeah but it takes like ten lines to add two plus two. 

[GravitySucks]

Yeah but it takes like ten lines to add two plus two. 

Having worked on NASA stuff for most of my life, I have often faced this quandary.

If your mission is to add 2 plus 2, you might not need a multimillion dollar mainframe and an army of support contractors.

If your mission is to add 2 plus 2 473 million times in the course of ascent phase and life depends on you always coming up with 4 for the answer (even for extremely large quantities of 2) , then the multimillion dollar solution may be appropriate.

But it is always wise to have thorough requirements, design reviews, core analysis, testing, user training and maybe even independent verification and validation. Otherwise one day you will find that the coop that was hired by your support contractor was a math major and not necessarily a systems analyst. You may find code such as:

answer = 4.
answer = 2 + 2.
answer = 2! 
answer = 2*2.
answer = (2)2.


I could get even more creative using do loops and pointers, because after all, support contractors do have to collect metrics on number of SLOCs developed and requiring maintenance.

And then comes launch day. Except today 2 is not really 2, (there are 2 in the cockpit and 3 in the aft flight deck, and they would all like oxygen) and the requirements were never really to add 2 plus 2. That was just an example in the requirements. Specious text that had no business being in a requirements document, unless it was specifically cited as something called "Rationale" or "Example".

You may chuckle. You may shake your head and laugh. You may even hear rumors of a country's satellite system that had a malfunction and instead of setting a parameter to "red", set it to "Red". Could cause quite a stir if it looks like the "Red" guys did something, but you really meant "don't trust me, my systems are "red"". 

When I had my own systems engineering company I was asked to reverse engineer and document a complex database processing system developed by Ford Aerospace. Seems like they ran out of funding before completing the documentation. All of their briefings said "See Appendix H". Appendix H turned out to be a printout of the source code.

One could literally tell which chapter of the PL/1 textbook the programmers were on when they wrote that segment of code. I could go on for days about the bloat that was in that software just to increase the number of SLOCs. I would say a conservative estimate would be 50% of the code was duplicate code or completely unnecessary.

I found at least 5 different ways to get the system date and time.

I used to have a coffee cup that said "If engineers designed buildings the way programmers designed software, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

Anyways - I don't have any idea what that has to do with Syrett or C2C

GNS

[GravitySucks]

Could be a good show tonight. Not sure I can stay awake.

[TigerLily]

A Syrett Sunday. Not sure about the topics tonight but we'll see. Just heard the all important "high strange" phrase so off to a good start

[GravitySucks]

A Syrett Sunday. Not sure about the topics tonight but we'll see. Just heard the all important "high strange" phrase so off to a good start

Pretty sure 1st guest has been on MITD twice. Not sure I will hear anything new.

[TigerLily]

Pretty sure 1st guest has been on MITD twice. Not sure I will hear anything new.

You've seen one mutilated cow, you've seen them all

[pate]

LOL - Yeah, another reason to despise M$. 

As I recall, I used the REM statement to add "designer" notes, i.e. to REMind me that the previous bits were intended to do something specific and I would observe the results and decide if it was useful code or not.  I even left some crap in to make what might be called "bloat-ware_" in these our modern thymes just to REMind myself that certain paths were not particularly useful, but interesting as an object-oriented lesson.

It was too esoteric and strictly defined for me, and frankly the architecture of the soon to be dominant system was a bit, kludgy?, Not Sure.  Mayhaps one could call it the "Chinese Blueprint" approach to the whole affair...

As a result, I wear a Fu-Manchu barbe ironically.  |NotOnsure wat that means, on average...}