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Sports Kneelers

Started by Zenman, September 24, 2017, 02:09:25 AM

ItsOver

Quote from: PB the Deplorable on September 30, 2017, 07:57:11 AM
Yes, it's the NBA.  My point is the NFL players are claiming this is a First Amendment issue, but it isn't - otherwise the First Amendment would apply to the NBA as well.

Also, the NFL has a similiar code of conduct rule, but the owners/league have chosen not to enforce it.
That's fine.  I have my own code.  I choose not to watch the NFL.

136 or 142

Quote from: PB the Deplorable on September 30, 2017, 07:57:11 AM
Yes, it's the NBA.  My point is the NFL players are claiming this is a First Amendment issue, but it isn't - otherwise the First Amendment would apply to the NBA as well.

Also, the NFL has a similiar code of conduct rule, but the owners/league have chosen not to enforce it.

Leaving aside whether it's a First Amendment issue or not, no, the NFL does not have any similar code of conduct rule.  Among other things, if it did, you would have found articles on that by now to have quoted, instead of having to quote the NBA rules.

What happened is that some people, likely deliberately, quoted the NBA code of conduct rules, and falsely claimed they were the NFL code of conduct rules.

Also, either way, if the NFL has rules and chooses not to enforce them, as a private business entity, that's none of the business of the President of the United States.

The Trumptards make the hypocritical claim that Trump is just 'offering an opinion'  (as are the players) but, when he does so in his official capacity such as when giving a speech, he has no more (or less) First Amendment protection than these professional athletes.  As such, it makes sense for his employer, the American people, to also tell him to shut up and stick to commenting on things that are actually part of his job.

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 08:05:32 AM
Leaving aside whether it's a First Amendment issue or not, no, the NFL does not have any similar code of conduct rule.  Among other things, if it did, you would have found articles on that by now to have quoted, instead of having to quote the NBA rules.

What happened is that some people, likely deliberately, quoted the NBA code of conduct rules, and falsely claimed they were the NFL code of conduct rules.

Also, either way, if the NFL has rules and chooses not to enforce them, as a private business entity, that's none of the business of the President of the United States.

The Trumptards make the hypocritical claim that Trump is just 'offering an opinion'  (as are the players) but, when he does so in his official capacity such as when giving a speech, he has no more (or less) First Amendment protection than these professional athletes.  As such, it makes sense for his employer, the American people, to also tell him to shut up and stick to commenting on things that are actually part of his job.

Well, regarding NFL rules, there's this.  You may want to contemplate why the Fake News Media isn't including it in their coverage:

Quote from: GravitySucks on September 25, 2017, 08:44:15 AM
https://news.grabien.com/story-roger-goodell-ignoring-leagues-own-rule-book-letting-players

''... The NFL rule book specifically requires both teams appear on the field for the playing of the anthem, standing, remaining quiet, and holding their helmets in their left hands. Failure to do so can result in fines, suspensions, and the loss of draft picks.

The rules are found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses...''




The president doesn't lose HIS First Amendment rights when taking office.  Players who intentionally make statements with their actions so publicly during the playing of the National Anthem before nationally televised NFL games are fair game for anyone to comment on, including a sitting president. 

Presidents and other officials make comments on a variety of issues on a daily basis.  I really have no idea why you think Trump isn't supposed to, other than you just don't lke what he has to say.



Yes, the President works for us.  And the way our system works, we decide every four years on who will hold the office for the next four years.  That's really the only input we have directly in his conduct.  The NFL owners can choose to enforce their rulebook at any time.  Apples and oranges. 

No one is telling these players they can't express any opinion they like.  We, as a nation, are telling them we see it as an attack on the country when they are doing it during the National Anthem, and that we don't like it.  Do you think it's just a coincidence they started doing it during the National Anthem, and they didn't mean to disrespect the country by doing so?  If you do, you may want to go back and see what Colon Kapernick and the handful of players who were doing it before last weekend had to say:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem   

136 or 142

Quote from: PB the Deplorable on September 30, 2017, 08:59:38 AM
Well, regarding NFL rules, there's this.  You may want to contemplate why the Fake News Media isn't including it in their coverage:

''... The NFL rule book specifically requires both teams appear on the field for the playing of the anthem, standing, remaining quiet, and holding their helmets in their left hands. Failure to do so can result in fines, suspensions, and the loss of draft picks.

The rules are found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses...''




The president doesn't lose HIS First Amendment rights when taking office.  Players who intentionally make statements with their actions so publicly during the playing of the National Anthem before nationally televised NFL games are fair game for anyone to comment on, including a sitting president. 

Presidents and other officials make comments on a variety of issues on a daily basis.  I really have no idea why you think Trump isn't supposed to, other than you just don't lke what he has to say.



Yes, the President works for us.  And the way our system works, we decide every four years on who will hold the office for the next four years.  That's really the only input we have directly in his conduct.  The NFL owners can choose to enforce their rulebook at any time.  Apples and oranges. 

No one is telling these players they can't express any opinion they like.  We, as a nation, are telling them we see it as an attack on the country when they are doing it during the National Anthem, and that we don't like it.  Do you think it's just a coincidence they started doing it during the National Anthem, and they didn't mean to disrespect the country by doing so?  If you do, you may want to go back and see what Colon Kapernick and the handful of players who were doing it before last weekend had to say:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem   

Yes, I'm aware of that claim.  I wrote about that when I wrote that there has been a likely deliberate attempt to use the NBA code of conduct rules as the NFL code of conduct rules.  I don't normally pay attention to what goes on on my Facebook feed, but one person I'm friends with commented on what I believe was the initial discussion on this and I decided to take a look and read over the discussion for a bit.  One person wrote "check out the NFL code of conduct rules on pages 62-63" and claimed to quote them but did not provide a link.  After awhile, somebody else did provide a link, and wrote "I've checked the NFL code of conduct rules on pages 62-63 and they say no such thing." 

Then another person wrote in and said "I've checked the entire NFL code of conduct rules and nowhere do they say any such thing."  And finally another person commented "those are the NBA code of conduct rules and that is what they say on pages 62-63."

So, sorry, those aren't the NFL code of conduct rules, they are the NBA code of conduct rules (and nobody disputes the NBA has those rules) and yes, you are here the victim of Fake News as reported by Grabien.

Grabien then claims these are rules from 'The Bible' that are not made public (convenient) but says the NFL calls this rule book 'guidelines.'  Fine, there may be another unwritten code that is negotiated on an ongoing basis between the league and the player's union.  If that is the case, then they would just be 'guidelines' and would be up to the league and the players through its union and could not be enforced unilaterally by league management, and even more so, is not found of pages 62-63 of its code of conduct.

So, any way you look at it, there is no publicly available written NFL code of conduct that requires its players to do these things such as stand during the anthem that the league is not enforcing. 

Also, based on the polling data, a lot more Americans would prefer that Donald Trump not exercise his 'free speech' rights on this than the players.  So, in terms of who is more closely actually speaking what "American's want" it's me and not you.

"Overall, 49% say the protesting players are doing the wrong thing to express their political opinion when they kneel during the National Anthem, while 43% say it's the right thing. Those views are sharply divided by race, partisanship and age.

Among whites, 59% say the players are doing the wrong thing while 82% of blacks say it's the right thing to do. Almost 9 in 10 Republicans say it's the wrong thing (87%) while just about three-quarters of Democrats say the opposite (72%). And most younger Americans call it the right thing (56% among those under age 45) while a majority of older Americans say it's wrong (59% among those age 45 or older).

Six in 10 Americans say that Trump did the wrong thing by criticizing those players, however, including 51% of whites, 97% of blacks and majorities of Democrats (86%) and independents (61%). Among Republicans, 23% called it the wrong thing to do, and even 32% of those who think the players are doing the wrong thing disagree with Trump's criticizing them."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/29/politics/national-anthem-nfl-cnn-poll/index.html

In regards to Trump's 'free speech' it is actually illegal for him to make threats over this that would cause somebody to lose their job, if the threat was regarded as a serious threat in the legal sense.   So, in fact, the President's 'free speech' rights are limited by law to some extent.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 08:05:32 AM
The Trumptards make the hypocritical claim that Trump is just 'offering an opinion'  (as are the players) but, when he does so in his official capacity such as when giving a speech, he has no more (or less) First Amendment protection than these professional athletes.  As such, it makes sense for his employer, the American people, to also tell him to shut up and stick to commenting on things that are actually part of his job.

Really? Do you ever tell your prime minister to STFU? That's right, you simply don't give a shit what he says or does because you have no input into your own political system and so have to come here to pretend. You can't even speak critically of Islam there or you'll be thrown in jail.  ::)

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 01:44:08 PM
Really? Do you ever tell your prime minister to STFU? That's right, you simply don't give a shit what he says or does because you have no input into your own political system and so have to come here to pretend. You can't even speak critically of Islam there or you'll be thrown in jail.  ::)

You sound like an Islamofascist. 

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 01:45:24 PM
You sound like an Islamofascist.

No, they're running your country now. Cover up your women, if you have any (highly doubtful)  ;D

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 01:48:04 PM
No, they're running your country now. Cover up your women, if you have any (highly doubtful)  ;D

Shouldn't you be reporting me to the RCMP?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 01:53:57 PM
Shouldn't you be reporting me to the RCMP?

Why? Your head is practically up the ass of Islam. No, you're OK for Canada.  :D

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 01:56:18 PM
Why? Your head is practically up the ass of Islam. No, you're OK for Canada.  :D

I would respond by mentioning some Islamic practice, but I actually know virtually nothing about Islam.

K_Dubb

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 01:36:03 PM

So, any way you look at it, there is no publicly available written NFL code of conduct that requires its players to do these things such as stand during the anthem that the league is not enforcing. 


Ooh that is interesting!  Not so much about the NFL and its players, about whose dispositions regarding the flag I couldn't possibly care less, but about the editorial standards of certain high-profile shows on Fox who perpetuated this apparent myth.  We shall see if a correction is forthcoming.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 01:57:52 PM
I would respond by mentioning some Islamic practice, but I actually know virtually nothing about Islam.

It doesn't matter. You'll still do what they tell you to because you're a globalist "good guy." You should be happy. This is what socialism is all about: People you know little to nothing about telling you what to do and how to live. Celebrate! :D

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:10:38 PM
It doesn't matter. You'll still do what they tell you to because you're a globalist "good guy." You should be happy. This is what socialism is all about: People you know little to nothing about telling you what to do and how to live. Celebrate! :D

Isn't this whole sports kneeling thing about other people (including the President) telling these athletes what to do?

Maybe you live in the Islamofascist nation and not me.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 02:12:37 PM
Isn't this whole sports kneeling thing about other people (including the President) telling these athletes what to do?

Maybe you live in the Islamofascist nation and not me.

Is Trump a Muslim?  ???

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:14:19 PM
Is Trump a Muslim?  ???

If the definition of a Muslim is 'one who tells other people what they must and must not do even with things that aren't illegal' then it seems he is.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:10:38 PM
It doesn't matter. You'll still do what they tell you to because you're a globalist "good guy." You should be happy. This is what socialism is all about: People you know little to nothing about telling you what to do and how to live. Celebrate! :D


Ahhh, I can help you there. Islam isn't socialist. The fanatical ones especially not. Its why many Muslims don't take out bank loans and mortgages the way they do in the west, nor do they believe in a common societal construct based on what we in the west would call socialism.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
If the definition of a Muslim is 'one who tells other people what they must and must not do even with things that aren't illegal' then it seems he is.

I don't think that is the definition but I understand that liberals are so highly delusional that they think that they can create reality with their words.  ::)


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:19:24 PM
I don't think that is the definition but I understand that liberals are so highly delusional that they think that they can create reality with their words.  ::)



Speaking of which. What does Drump mean when he says words?

136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:19:24 PM
I don't think that is the definition but I understand that liberals are so highly delusional that they think that they can create reality with their words.  ::)


Is Robert Mueller a Muslim?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on September 30, 2017, 02:17:37 PM

Ahhh, I can help you there. Islam isn't socialist. The fanatical ones especially not. Its why many Muslims don't take out bank loans and mortgages the way they do in the west, nor do they believe in a common societal construct based on what we in the west would call socialism.

Of course, you would have all the inside poop from having live up their ass for years.  ;D


136 or 142

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on September 30, 2017, 02:22:41 PM
No but your Russian mom is.  ::)

I don't have a Russian mom.  Gravity Sucks has a Russian mom, lives in Russia and is an FSB disinformation officer.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 02:24:20 PM
I don't have a Russian mom.  Gravity Sucks has a Russian mom, lives in Russia and is an FSB disinformation officer.

Da, spoken like a real FSB agent, comrade.  ;D

GravitySucks

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 02:24:20 PM
I don't have a Russian mom.  Gravity Sucks has a Russian mom, lives in Russia and is an FSB disinformation officer.

Глупый мальчик. Вы всегда путаете ФСБ с ГРУ.

starrmtn001

Quote from: GravitySucks on September 30, 2017, 02:29:17 PM
Глупый мальчик. Вы всегда путаете ФСБ с ГРУ.
Damn straight! ;)

starrmtn001

Worst business move in HISTORY, the NFL losing ticket sales as ADVERTISERS FLEE!  9.29.17.

https://youtu.be/c8UEIYM7YEA


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: starrmtn001 on September 30, 2017, 05:17:28 PM
Worst business move in HISTORY, the NFL losing ticket sales as ADVERTISERS FLEE!  9.29.17.

https://youtu.be/c8UEIYM7YEA

Its on FOX, it must be true!  ::)  Like they said pizzagate was true and later retracted that story. Because it wasn't true.  ;D

starrmtn001

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on September 30, 2017, 05:47:06 PM
Its on FOX, it must be true!  ::)  Like they said pizzagate was true and later retracted that story. Because it wasn't true.  ;D

Oh, Yorkie, Yorkie, Yorkie.  Silly boi. ;D

Quote from: 136 or 142 on September 30, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that claim.  I wrote about that when I wrote that there has been a likely deliberate attempt to use the NBA code of conduct rules as the NFL code of conduct rules.  I don't normally pay attention to what goes on on my Facebook feed, but one person I'm friends with commented on what I believe was the initial discussion on this and I decided to take a look and read over the discussion for a bit.  One person wrote "check out the NFL code of conduct rules on pages 62-63" and claimed to quote them but did not provide a link.  After awhile, somebody else did provide a link, and wrote "I've checked the NFL code of conduct rules on pages 62-63 and they say no such thing." 

Then another person wrote in and said "I've checked the entire NFL code of conduct rules and nowhere do they say any such thing."  And finally another person commented "those are the NBA code of conduct rules and that is what they say on pages 62-63."

So, sorry, those aren't the NFL code of conduct rules, they are the NBA code of conduct rules (and nobody disputes the NBA has those rules) and yes, you are here the victim of Fake News as reported by Grabien.



Also, based on the polling data, a lot more Americans would prefer that Donald Trump not exercise his 'free speech' rights on this than the players.  So, in terms of who is more closely actually speaking what "American's want" it's me and not you...

Six in 10 Americans say that Trump did the wrong thing by criticizing those players, however...

In regards to Trump's 'free speech' it is actually illegal for him to make threats over this that would cause somebody to lose their job, if the threat was regarded as a serious threat in the legal sense.   So, in fact, the President's 'free speech' rights are limited by law to some extent.


Well, in that case they can go beat each other senseless and give each other brain damage.  Play on.


As far as the polls about Trump, first I'd say it's cute you still trust the polls put out by the Fake News Media.  You do realize they have an agenda, aren't shy about publishing dishonest fake polls, fake statistics, and heavily biased ''news reports'', right?  Since there is no way to verify their polling claims, I think we can safely disregard this.

Second, I think Obama reinforced the idea that that a president can do whatever he wants, as the only recourse is Impeachent and removal, and neither party is going to vote for removal.  Lawsuits challenging their actions, if they aren't thrown out or the plaintiff denied standing, can take years. 

We warned his supporters he was establishing precedent and that someday a president they didn't like would also go well beyond the powers of his office, but they didn't seem to give a hoot.  So now you want to trot out some minor law Trump's supposedly breaking (even though that is far from clear)?  And we're supposed to be what, upset about it?  Really?

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