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In hindsight, was Romney the most electable?

Started by Pragmier, September 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM

Pragmier

Of course he can still win, but noting declining poll numbers, what seems like an unfocused campaign, and inability to decisively best Obama on the economy, was Romney really the most electable?

I'm starting to wonder specifically about Huntsman. Forget the getting past Tea Party aspect; I find it hard to believe Huntsman wouldn't have pulled in many more indepedents and Democrats. The tax returns issue would be gone; the out-of-touch rich guy tag would not stick; foreign policy - although he worked for Obama he'd claim expertise. He didn't pass universal healthcare so that's one less weakness. Just seemed like a very solid candidate.

I'd like to see him run again - and would have jumped the Democratic ship to support him now.


Ruteger

Romney is awful. I would have preferred Pawlenty. Unfortunately, Romney is all we have at the moment. I will vote Romney/Ryan, only because another 4 years of Hussein will destroy this country. The lesser of two evils...

MV/Liberace!

beyond all of the specific romney weaknesses (of which there are many), i just don't feel a win in my gut.  i've got the same feeling i had in 1996 and 2008.

analog kid

Quote from: Ruteger on September 30, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
Romney is awful. I would have preferred Pawlenty. Unfortunately, Romney is all we have at the moment. I will vote Romney/Ryan, only because another 4 years of Hussein will destroy this country. The lesser of two evils...

How exactly would Obama "destroy the country" if reelected? I'm not familiar with that theory...

Juan

You haven't been listening -or reading this forum.  According to some, Obama is a Muslim intent on bringing sharia here - according to others, he is a Marxist intent on communism.  Or others say he's simply an incompetent.

You may not agree with these theories, but I'm amazed you haven't heard them.

ziznak

AND he gives out free cell phones... don't let anybody confuse you with talk about how the free phone thing started with Reagan and it's just recently that American lowlifes have figured out how to abuse yet another program created to benefit the common good.

BAMAPHONE!!!

analog kid

Quote from: UFO Fill on September 30, 2012, 02:36:56 PM
You haven't been listening -or reading this forum.  According to some, Obama is a Muslim intent on bringing sharia here - according to others, he is a Marxist intent on communism.  Or others say he's simply an incompetent.

You may not agree with these theories, but I'm amazed you haven't heard them.

I'm quite familiar there. Guess I was taking the word "destroy" a bit too literally, like hellfire falling from the skies.

Can't see how the blame of incompetence could be placed solely on Obama, with shenanigans like this going on.

John Smith

The new Obama 47% ads are devastating, one of the best political ads I have ever seen.

As an aside, what does it say about Romney that he can't beat a black man in this economy?

Quote from: ziznak on September 30, 2012, 03:00:38 PM
AND he gives out free cell phones... don't let anybody confuse you with talk about how the free phone thing started with Reagan and it's just recently that American lowlifes have figured out how to abuse yet another program created to benefit the common good.

BAMAPHONE!!!

Nailed it!



onan

Quote from: Mind Flayer Monk on October 01, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
Nailed it!


This more factually nails it.

http://www.freegovernmentcellphones.net/faq/obama-phone

Since the day Barack Obama was inaugurated, the term “The Obama Phone” has persisted. People say Obama is redistributing the wealth by starting a program that gives free cell phones â€" Obama phones â€" to the poor. Detractors of both President Obama and of the government’s long-standing phone assistance program have fought over this claim since 2009 with each side mudslinging “facts” at each other.

FreeGovernmentCellPhones.net is going to clear this subject up once and for all with the most detailed account of the facts that you will find anywhere. When you next have a discussion on this topic, just give those on the other side the link to this page.

Is the government giving out free cell phones?

Yes. This part is true. They fund low end cell phones plans, and offset some of the cost of landline phones. The programs that authorize the phone distribution program are called Lifeline Assistance and Lifeline Link-Up. Lifeline Assistance helps pay monthly phone bills and Lifeline Link-Up helps pay the initial outlay for the phone and installation. The two programs are often lumped together and simply called Lifeline.

These Lifeline cell phones are delivered through relatively new, government-approved cell phone companies like Safelink Wireless, Assurance Wireless and Reachout Wireless, among others. These companies were spun of off larger prepaid cell phone companies to specialize in the Lifeline program.

Did Obama start the free phones program?



The cell phone distribution program did begin in 2008, the year Obama was elected president, but that is a coincidence. Let’s look more closely at the facts.

Notice that earlier we said Link-Up helps fund “installation.” What installation does a cell phone have? None. So why is installation part of Link-Up, which is under the Lifeline program umbrella? Because, the whole thing began back in 1996 when the Federal Communications Commission authorized the programs for landline phones. At that time it provided discounts on landline phones only, for obvious reasons.

To this day the government provides discounts on landline phones for financially disadvantaged people in the United States and U.S. territories. The Link-Up portion helps with the installation and the Lifeline Assistance part helps with the monthly bills, to the tune of roughly ten dollars a month.

So, the subsidization of phones began under President Clinton, and has continued under Presidents Bush and Obama.

Over that time, the usage of cell phones rose and the costs came down. Assuming one believes in the Lifeline program in the first place, and remembering that the FCC has mandated the program, it only makes sense to expand the phone assistance program to include cell phones. So, in 2008 the first application of this program for mobile phones began when a company called Tracfone started their Safelink Wireless service in Tennessee.
Aha, some say, that’s the same year Obama was elected! Well, that’s true. But the service in Tennessee was launched three months prior to Obama being elected. And that means the discussion and approval of the extension of the program occurred under President Bush’s watch.

The Bush Phone, anyone?

How did the Obama Phone rumors start?

Just how did this “Obama Phone” rumor get started anyway? Back around early 2009, emails began circulating that called the free cell phone program the Obama Phone. And you know what happens when emails start getting passed around â€" few people verify them, and just simply forward them to everyone in their contact list. And the people who forward them believe that Barack Obama has socialist tendencies, so there was a willing audience. Here is just one sample email:

FW: Obamaphone… no joke!!
I had a former employee call me earlier today inquiring about a job, and at the end of the conversation he gave me his phone number. I asked the former employee if this was a new cell phone number and he told me yes this was his “Obama phone.” I asked him what an “Obama phone” was and he went on to say that welfare recipients are now eligible to receive (1) a FREE new phone and (2) approx 70 minutes of FREE minutes every month. I was a little skeptical so I Googled it and low and behold he was telling the truth. TAX PAYER MONEY IS BEING REDISTRIBUTED TO WELFARE RECIPIENTS FOR FREE CELL PHONES. This program was started earlier this year. Enough is enough, the ship is sinking and it’s sinking fast. The very foundations that this country was built on are being shaken. The age old concepts of God, family, and hard work have flown out the window and are being replaced with “Hope and Change” and “Change we can believe in.”

Variations of these emails persist to this day. Like President Obama or not, they are simply false.

Who qualifies?

The free cell phones only go to those who qualify for the program under the exact same eligibility requirements that have been in effect since 1996. An applicant is generally eligible if they are at or below 135-150% of the Federal Poverty Guidelines (depending upon the state in which they live), or if they already participate in one of many public assistance programs such as Medicaid, food stamps, energy assistance, public housing and others.

Nothing about the Lifeline eligibility has changed since President Clinton’s days. Nothing has changed since President Bush’s days.

Who pays for the phones?

There’s another running argument about if the phones are or are not paid for by taxpayers. Yes and no, it depends how you look at it.

The money actually comes from a small fee added to most people’s monthly phone bills, called the Universal Service Fund fee. For a complete discussion of this, please read, “Do Taxpayers Pay for Government Cell Phones for the Poor?”

And it’s important to note that it does not cost any more to provide cell phones to people than it does landline. The government subsidizes both equally. In fact, landlines are often more expensive because the Link-Up portion is not always required for cell phones, depending upon the state.

Ben Shockley

Correct and reasonable as always, onan.

Unfortunately, the average American "conservative" is so bitter and scared of anyone getting anything --not just "free" but anything-- that he will literally cut off his nose to spite his face.   Witness them going needlessly and totally counter-productively apeshit over "Obamacare," carrying their guns to street protests and threatening armed revolution over being offered better medical insurance.  Doesn't matter that THEY --the "conservatives"-- can benefit: they are just goddamn determined that NO ONE ELSE benefit.
They are CRAZY.    Accept it.

stevesh

I'll put my "conservative" credentials up against anyone's here, and I think the 'free cell phones to the poor' (regardless of who created it) is a great idea. Remember, we demons on the Right want everyone to be working rather than receiving welfare, and having a phone for job interview call-backs is essential.

The General

Quote from: Ben Shockley on October 02, 2012, 08:40:30 AM
Correct and reasonable as always, onan.

Unfortunately, the average American "conservative" is so bitter and scared of anyone getting anything --not just "free" but anything-- that he will literally cut off his nose to spite his face.   Witness them going needlessly and totally counter-productively apeshit over "Obamacare," carrying their guns to street protests and threatening armed revolution over being offered better medical insurance.  Doesn't matter that THEY --the "conservatives"-- can benefit: they are just goddamn determined that NO ONE ELSE benefit.
They are CRAZY.    Accept it.
I've heard this argument framed another way.  A good friend of mine, an Obama supporter, always counters any argument that I make with "why do you want to vote against your own self interests?"

My response is, I don't want to vote for MY self interests.  I want to vote for the Union's best interest.  Our future's best interest, our Nation's best interest.  Sure, I want better health care, I want a free phone, I want subsidized housing, free lunches, a massage, free public transportation, I want free education, free condoms, free hookers, I want free stuff.  Everybody wants free stuff.  The problem is that it bankrupted us.  We can't afford it anymore.  Someone has to pay for it.  We are 16 trillion in debt now.  It's unsustainable, and the answer is not 'more free stuff.' 

2000 years ago, just before the fall of Rome,  Titus Livius said that "Rome can no longer stand to bear her vices or their remedies."  That's where we are now, baby.  Think about it.

Ben Shockley

Quote from: The General on October 02, 2012, 09:43:33 AM
...Sure, I want better health care, I want a free phone, I want subsidized housing, free lunches, a massage, free public transportation, I want free education, free condoms, free hookers, I want free stuff.  Everybody wants free stuff.  The problem is that it bankrupted us.  We can't afford it anymore.  Someone has to pay for it.  We are 16 trillion in debt now.  It's unsustainable, and the answer is not 'more free stuff.' 
Ha, ha-- you are so funny Mister General Man -- mentioning all that trivial shit that we'll all laugh at with you.   Housing, health care, hookers, condoms-- same trivial profligate crap, right?
I didn't see you mention the billions spent weekly on war.   You know, that's where the "extra debt" of the Obama years came from: putting the Bush wars / occupations "on the books."   Or is all that random death and profit for the contractors just too much fun to cut off, Mister General Man ?

Ben Shockley

Quote from: stevesh on October 02, 2012, 09:28:11 AM
I'll put my "conservative" credentials up against anyone's here, and I think the 'free cell phones to the poor' (regardless of who created it) is a great idea. Remember, we demons on the Right want everyone to be working rather than receiving welfare, and having a phone for job interview call-backs is essential.
I know you worked hard, as usual, to put that "cost v. benefit" conservative spin on it, stevesh.   But you shine through.   Moments of clarity like that are why I love you.

Pragmier

And now i'm getting free cell phone banner ads.

Ben Shockley

Quote from: Pragmier on October 02, 2012, 10:53:31 AM
And now i'm getting free cell phone banner ads.
You mean in here?  Is that better or worse than the tranny-looking Asian chicks?   Or the middle-aged White women who "don't want YOUNG men!  [They] want YOU!

The General

Quote from: Ben Shockley on October 02, 2012, 10:18:47 AM
Ha, ha-- you are so funny Mister General Man -- mentioning all that trivial shit that we'll all laugh at with you.   Housing, health care, hookers, condoms-- same trivial profligate crap, right?
I didn't see you mention the billions spent weekly on war.   You know, that's where the "extra debt" of the Obama years came from: putting the Bush wars / occupations "on the books."   Or is all that random death and profit for the contractors just too much fun to cut off, Mister General Man ?
I agree with you, the unnecessary military endeavors have done much to bankrupt us as well, but it doesn't change my argument.  You are missing my point entirely, We can no longer afford it, any of it.  Neither Obama nor Romney has the remedies, we are out of options.  We're bankrupt and it's not about what we want, it's about the hard long road of sacrifice that lies ahead of us in order to regain our economic foothold.  God forbid that some REAL military threat should surface any time soon.  We are ill prepared financially, militarily, and in the unity that it would require to prevail.

analog kid

At least social welfare goes right back into the economy, which can create demand and jobs. Corporate welfare is the real offender IMO.

I know that's a debate about trickle down that can go way over my head though.

Ben Shockley

Quote from: The General on October 02, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
I agree with you, the unnecessary military endeavors have done much to bankrupt us as well, but it doesn't change my argument....

Thanks for recognizing it.   Too bad that the blank check to the military and contractors is only a prompted afterthought for you, way down below that needless, godless concept of health care.
Maybe you're slowly getting there, to even include it.

Quote from: The General on October 02, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
You are missing my point entirely, We can no longer afford it, any of it.

I have long thought that "capitalism" is not a way to run a society full of people who mostly become victims to that ideal, but a game that should be played by willing participants who go to an uninhabited island to run an experiment.
You sound like that, G man.   "Can't afford any of it."   So maybe you should go to an island, build a cabin out of your shirt, and raise your libertarian (i.e., anti-tax-paying) flag and family without any extraneous social crap.   You won't have to pay for all us freeloaders (i.e., everyone who isn't you).   You won't have any help when you need it.   Which of course, you never will.    Because you said so.

The General

Quote from: Ben Shockley on October 02, 2012, 11:39:01 AM
Thanks for recognizing it.   Too bad that the blank check to the military and contractors is only a prompted afterthought for you, way down below that needless, godless concept of health care.
Maybe you're slowly getting there, to even include it.
I didn't mention it at first because that wasn't what we were talking about.  I almost included another paragraph about it because I knew what your retort would be before you even read my post.  But I fully recognize it as a problem, it's also what collapsed Rome among other things.  We're in the same mess.

Quote from: Ben Shockley on October 02, 2012, 11:39:01 AM
I have long thought that "capitalism" is not a way to run a society full of people who mostly become victims to that ideal, but a game that should be played by willing participants who go to an uninhabited island to run an experiment.
You sound like that, G man.   "Can't afford any of it."   So maybe you should go to an island, build a cabin out of your shirt, and raise your libertarian (i.e., anti-tax-paying) flag and family without any extraneous social crap.   You won't have to pay for all us freeloaders (i.e., everyone who isn't you).   You won't have any help when you need it.   Which of course, you never will.    Because you said so.
Remarkably like what the founders of this nation did.  But you don't like those evil white guys anyway.

Ben Shockley

Quote from: The General on October 02, 2012, 11:45:40 AM
...I knew what your retort would be before you even read my post...
Remarkably like what the founders of this nation did.  But you don't like those evil white guys anyway.

And since you are psychic, you undoubtedly knew I would strongly encourage you to get the hell away from us freeloaders-- abandoning us and our godless ways including the ending of all communication--  and start your own little miserable tax-free fiefdom, as incestuous in every other way as your political opinions are.

The General

I'm not psychic, just all too familiar with the talking points and arguments of the left.  I wish the average liberal would become acquainted with the arguments of the right.  Perhaps it would be enlightening for them.  Unfortunately there is no need for them to do so, they have learned so well  that the only tactic needed is to demonize the right.  There is no need to familiarize yourself with the points of view of those who are deemed to be bigoted, racist, homophobic, sexist,  xenophobic, intolerant, elitist, colonialist, empire building, gluttonous, militaristic, capitalist pigs.

What we really need is to appoint a group of select few people to decide what each person should produce and how much of it.  This group would consist of the very smartest people - I think Obama is considered to be one of those, perhaps he would agree to lead the group.  They would then decide things like who gets what.  After these basics are established, they could expand and move on to perfect their system by setting the prices, deciding who was educated to what level and what classes they would take, deciding who would live where, who got promoted and who didn't, who would get what healthcare, who could come join our utopia and who could leave.  All decided based on the greater good. 

Of course there would be a few neanderthals that didn't agree with any of this and would criticize and even fight back, so a militia loyal to that small group of very smart people would have to be set up.  Because of the threat the neanderthals posed, this militia would have to be ruthless and think nothing of eliminating these threats to the general good.    To make their elimination easier, call them enemies of the people.

Just in case the kinks didn't get worked out right away and half the people starved, it would probably be best if the worst of the neanderthals were eliminated up front - the former businessmen, farmers, anyone with a college education, clergy, teachers,writers - all the successful people other than the small group of smart people in charge.  In case anyone was missed and fell through the cracks, we could get the young kids to rat their parents out.

Quote from: The General on October 02, 2012, 12:21:14 PM
...  Perhaps it would be enlightening for them.  Unfortunately there is no need for them to do so, they have learned so well  that the only tactic needed is to demonize the right.  There is no need to familiarize yourself with the points of view ...

Imagine these people getting several decades or more into life and waking up one morning to realize everything they've been told and believed was ultimately a bunch of unworkable crap.

The General

Quote from: Paper*Boy on October 02, 2012, 12:27:50 PM
What we really need is to appoint a group of select few people to decide what each person should produce and how much of it....
Brilliant idea Paper*Boy!  What shall we call it?  Oh, wait, there's already a word for it.  But we can't use those old tired words that have negative connotations to them.  Let's just say that we're moving 'forward.' 

McPhallus

Quote from: Paper*Boy on October 02, 2012, 12:32:37 PM

Imagine these people getting several decades or more into life and waking up one morning to realize everything they've been told and believed was ultimately a bunch of unworkable crap.

This is called "repuberty."  :P

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