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20151113 - Terrorism in Paris - Open Lines - Live Show Chat Thread

Started by jazmunda, November 13, 2015, 09:06:28 PM

Rix Gins

Quote from: analog kid on November 14, 2015, 08:30:14 PM
I watched a video of a pregnant woman hanging from a balcony, who was later killed. I wish I didn't watch that.

Have read several accounts of this and it kind of looks like she was pulled back in after all the killing was done.  Heres hoping, anyway.

Barbara

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 14, 2015, 11:47:23 AM
The Saudis have been buying their way to the control of mosques around the world for 50 years.  They've funded terror since Arafat and made it an Arab cultural fixture."

Wow is that a frightening and enlightening thought.

albrecht

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on November 14, 2015, 09:13:09 PM


I know what you're saying though, albrecht. It's essentially this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKm36o0ZUWI

I'm just not convinced that is genius. I still tend to lean toward the insanity side on this one but you/he may be right. It's one of the things about that movie that continues to haunt me to this day.
In a way, yes. I think there was a discrete period in history, and very short, and particular to the types of conflicts and European location in which war was fought, relatively "humanely," (not for the poor saps in the front-lines who simply shot or charged each other until the next folks could reload or unsheath and step up. But leaders weren't targeted, for the most part civilians weren't targeted, campaigns would stop for weather, guerrilla-style action was limited or non-existent, generals/field-marshals/officers weren't targeted, Popes etc could call peaces, no fighting on Sundays, etc. Almost gentlemanly chess-matches between related royal cousins or rich-folks in charge of various principalities, countries, etc. (With pawns being sacrificed, of course.) But that was a rare time, and not even really true (especially for the common man or the farmer etc whose land was ransacked or fought upon or taxed.) But, relatively benign compared to the rest of history- where war is tooth-and-nail, any-means-necessary, rape the women, kill the men, enslave the children, and salt their fields and burn their town to the ground type of stuff. ISIS likes that. And even WANT the confrontation like this! (It fulfills their bizarre prophecies.) I'm not advocating that- don't give them what they want- but still have the WILL to do what needs to be done. Via modern methods and science.

WOTR

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 14, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
Sufi/Islamic teachings go on and on about Muhammad being "The Perfect Man".  This is the same man who married his best friend's daughter when she was 6, but given that he was a "Holy man" he waited to consumate the marriage -- until she was 9.

Perfect!!!
I don't know... For fun I did a quick search.  If we are going to judge a society on what the leaders did a hundred years ago in terms of marriage, I think we need to keep in mind our past...  I was going to start with royalty... But I think it may be more fun to point out that in 1880 (Deleware), the minimum age you could marry your daughter off was 7 while in New York and Canada you would have to wait until they were old maids (at the ripe old age of 10).  Royalty has been know to marry even younger (look it up yourself.)

***Note- I am not defending Islam, nor the prophet.  However, using this statistic may not be relevant in proving him a "bad man".  Times were much more screwed up and what was acceptable was very different.

WOTR

Quote from: albrecht on November 14, 2015, 03:59:40 PM
...send your girls to a public secular school, rat out your Imam, marry someone from our countries instead of sending back to Pakistan (or elsewhere) for a wife...
Are you offering up your daughter?  I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you would not be very happy with a refugee marrying into your family.

albrecht

Quote from: WOTR on November 15, 2015, 11:30:57 PM
Are you offering up your daughter?  I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you would not be very happy with a refugee marrying into your family.
Ha! You are correct, sir. Though I do have some family members that have married, well not refugees, but, I guess economic refugees(?) and seem to be good sorts of people, highly educated, rich, etc despite the somewhat swarthy appearance. But if they are happy? Ok. Ideal, nah, but it is a 'melting pot,' apparently, and they are actually pretty nice guys and fun to hang out with. So to each her own. But nothing was forced or etc. That is my point, often the Muslims send home, even without considering the "Westernized," as they see them, people in their own neighborhoods for wives.

albrecht

Quote from: WOTR on November 15, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
I don't know... For fun I did a quick search.  If we are going to judge a society on what the leaders did a hundred years ago in terms of marriage, I think we need to keep in mind our past...  I was going to start with royalty... But I think it may be more fun to point out that in 1880 (Deleware), the minimum age you could marry your daughter off was 7 while in New York and Canada you would have to wait until they were old maids (at the ripe old age of 10).  Royalty has been know to marry even younger (look it up yourself.)

***Note- I am not defending Islam, nor the prophet.  However, using this statistic may not be relevant in proving him a "bad man".  Times were much more screwed up and what was acceptable was very different.
Sure it is like, done so frequently, referenced the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament for details and congruencecies to Islam. Sure. One can. But NOW is the issue. (Even ignoring that the New Testament, pretty much, was precisely that- 'new', that is, the old stuff- no longer applies- a new Covenant) even the most Orthodox Jews don't do all that stuff (some do but most don't or at least limit it to themselves.) Islam- "what have you done lately?" Sure Christians had internecine warfare and went after others also (often in response to Islam and other threats though.) Jews did, and still do some bad stuff. But mostly both have modernized, or if not 'set apart themselves' and stick to their compound, kibbitz, Amish farm, late-night tv, etc. Only Islam is militant and practices what the most ancient (and cribbed) beliefs are.

Meister_000

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 14, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
Sufi/Islamic teachings go on and on about Muhammad being "The Perfect Man".  This is the same man who married his best friend's daughter when she was 6, but given that he was a "Holy man" he waited to consummate the marriage -- until she was 9.

Perfect!!!

Quote from: WOTR on November 15, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
I don't know... For fun I did a quick search.  If we are going to judge a society on what the leaders did a hundred years ago in terms of marriage, I think we need to keep in mind our past...  I was going to start with royalty... But I think it may be more fun to point out that in 1880 (Deleware), the minimum age you could marry your daughter off was 7 while in New York and Canada you would have to wait until they were old maids (at the ripe old age of 10).  Royalty has been know to marry even younger (look it up yourself.)

***Note- I am not defending Islam, nor the prophet.  However, using this statistic may not be relevant in proving him a "bad man".  Times were much more screwed up and what was acceptable was very different.


I'm glad you had fun, WORT.

So, it turns out that this topic is a little dicier than I expected. But let's see what see can come up with, shall we? First, let's separate-out the issue of marriage at a (very) young age from the idea of adult men having sexual intercourse with nine year old girls. The first item, "childhood marriage" per-say could probably be made sense and justification of easily enough, as shocking as it may seem to us. But that later issue, ya, I think we oughta look real hard at that one. There's probably more at stake there than meets the eye. In fact, we'd better hang it up right now as a race of would-be rational and moral creatures if we can't get that one right and straight -- and right quick! And further, we should call it quits right now if we care to hold any pretense at having any kind of honorable and "cultural continuity" in our possession which might warrant renewing from generation to generation. Is there ANY shred if "decency" in the human animal whatsoever?  I say yes -- or shoot me right here and now!! 

What we're really talking about here, seems to me and for starters, is at least four different questions at once:

- is there a the difference between a nine year old girl and one who's entered puberty (at minimum) age 12 or 13 seems the generally recognized cross-over point (and it has been so across the ages, a constant observable fact of biology, and observed by both men and woman, mothers and fathers, a "judgement" based on nature and empirical fact).

- is there such a thing as an "age of consent"? And has such a notion existed in Western culture and law for any appreciable length of time?

- do we demand _any_ 'standards" from members of society, and also perhaps a "higher standard" from those members in places of authority, power, and esteem?

- is there anything "timeless" in humanity and human nature that might be assumed, expected, and guaranteed to "raise an eyebrow" among "adult-folk" at least, male and female both?

Since you like learning new things, WORT, time to get cracking! Get ye some answers -- as if the past, present, and future _matter_, even a little!


albrecht

Quote from: Meister_000 on November 16, 2015, 03:51:11 AM

I'm glad you had fun, WORT.

So, it turns out that this topic is a little dicier than I expected. But let's see what see can come up with, shall we? First, let's separate-out the issue of marriage at a (very) young age from the idea of adult men having sexual intercourse with nine year old girls. The first item, "childhood marriage" per-say could probably be made sense and justification of easily enough, as shocking as it may seem to us. But that later issue, ya, I think we oughta look real hard at that one. There's probably more at stake there than meets the eye. In fact, we'd better hang it up right now as a race of would-be rational and moral creatures if we can't get that one right and straight -- and right quick! And further, we should call it quits right now if we care to hold any pretense at having any kind of honorable and "cultural continuity" in our possession which might warrant renewing from generation to generation. Is there ANY shred if "decency" in the human animal whatsoever?  I say yes -- or shoot me right here and now!! 

What we're really talking about here, seems to me and for starters, is at least four different questions at once:

- is there a the difference between a nine year old girl and one who's entered puberty (at minimum) age 12 or 13 seems the generally recognized cross-over point (and it has been so across the ages, a constant observable fact of biology, and observed by both men and woman, mothers and fathers, a "judgement" based on nature and empirical fact).

- is there such a thing as an "age of consent"? And has such a notion existed in Western culture and law for any appreciable length of time?

- do we demand _any_ 'standards" from members of society, and also perhaps a "higher standard" from those members in places of authority, power, and esteem?

- is there anything "timeless" in humanity and human nature that might be assumed, expected, and guaranteed to "raise an eyebrow" among "adult-folk" at least, male and female both?

Since you like learning new things, WORT, time to get cracking! Get ye some answers -- as if the past, present, and future _matter_, even a little!
In the US there are odd situations because age-of-consent and marriage mostly is State law, not Federal, though certain things (Mann Act, Porno, etc can still be prosecuted. Also travel to another country to have sex with someone 'under 18' is a Federal crime- even if here, in some States, it would be legal to do so or to marry.) Also judges, in many places, can override age-of-consent for marriages with family consent but still could get odd situations. Like: one could marry a girl (or just have 'relations' with) legally but if a photo was taken, or if State lines were crossed, get prosecuted for Federal or State crime. Same with drinking alcohol, can get odd situations. A parent can often allow and so can a husband- so the person might be below drinking age but with consent can drink? I think, trying to recall, some countries, Holland for one, had to 'up' their consent law under international pressure from 12 fairly recently. But some countries there is still quite low (by US or modern standards.) We also have the now almost epidemic of 'children' being prosecuted as sex offenders for their own behavior (online picture sharing or in reality.) Remedied, a bit, by "Romeo and Juliet" laws, etc but still an issue between the law on the books and the actual situation. It is a convoluted situation but, normally, prosecutors and juries have discretion and 'gut feelings' on the situation.

Quote from: Rix Gins on November 15, 2015, 02:45:08 PM

Have read several accounts of this and it kind of looks like she was pulled back in after all the killing was done.  Heres hoping, anyway.

Like Analog Kid I was horrified at the image of a pregnant young woman in such dire circumstances, however, I was pleased to learn that future mama and child are alive and "well."

Sehnzeleid

Giving ISIS-controlled areas in Syria the gift of a few massive EMPs sounds like a good idea. Suddenly eradicate a large portion of their communications ability.   

Lt.Uhura

Quote from: Lt.Uhura on November 13, 2015, 11:32:04 PM
Where's Anonymous?

Here they are; "Expect us." 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOrgKiSvUo

It seems from the comments following the video that many are skeptical that Anonymous will live up to their "neutralization of the terrorists" threat.  As occupiers, ISIS's infrastructure in Syria was already weak, likely much weaker after bombings by France.  Now might be an opportune time for Anonymous to clean up by hacking their communication network, and revealing their funding. 

albrecht

Quote from: Lt.Uhura on November 16, 2015, 03:22:57 PM
Here they are; "Expect us." 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOrgKiSvUo

It seems from the comments following the video that many are skeptical that Anonymous will live up to their "neutralization of the terrorists" threat.  As occupiers, ISIS's infrastructure in Syria was already weak, likely much weaker after bombings by France.  Now might be an opportune time for Anonymous to clean up by hacking their communication network, and revealing their funding.
I hope they do but I am skeptical. I recall when Anonymous was going to go after the Cartels, which were beheading people before ISIS even got started, and they quickly backed down after a blogger was killed. It seems, to me, that they go after low-hanging fruit (KKK, small town police, etc) or after people who, if caught, will treat them humanely (USA, British gov etc.) Never after Cartels, terrorists, N.Korea, China, Russia, Mafia, Mafiya, organized crime, etc.

Meister_000

Quote from: albrecht on November 16, 2015, 10:14:58 AM
In the US there are odd situations because age-of-consent and marriage mostly is State law, not Federal, though certain things (Mann Act, Porno, etc can still be prosecuted. Also travel to another country to have sex with someone 'under 18' is a Federal crime- even if here, in some States, it would be legal to do so or to marry.) Also judges, in many places, can override age-of-consent for marriages with family consent but still could get odd situations. Like: one could marry a girl (or just have 'relations' with) legally but if a photo was taken, or if State lines were crossed, get prosecuted for Federal or State crime. Same with drinking alcohol, can get odd situations. A parent can often allow and so can a husband- so the person might be below drinking age but with consent can drink? I think, trying to recall, some countries, Holland for one, had to 'up' their consent law under international pressure from 12 fairly recently. But some countries there is still quite low (by US or modern standards.) We also have the now almost epidemic of 'children' being prosecuted as sex offenders for their own behavior (online picture sharing or in reality.) Remedied, a bit, by "Romeo and Juliet" laws, etc but still an issue between the law on the books and the actual situation. It is a convoluted situation but, normally, prosecutors and juries have discretion and 'gut feelings' on the situation.


Yes, the historical terrain is nowhere's as neat clean and consistent as we might have hoped to find. However, there are at least two respected and fairly ancient sources cited that I saw mentioned last night during my quick peak at the record and which gave me reason to take heart, those being 12th century English law as well as 12th century "Gratian" (legal writings) references. That later is key because Gratian's famous "Decretum" is one of the top two most important and influential legal documents in history , drawing not only from the previous millennia's worth of Ecclesiastical or Church law [Roman Catholic], but also, more importantly, including within it citations taken from the just recently recovered "Code of Justinian" [Corpus Juris Civilis] (Justinian being the 6th century Roman Emperor), and therefore the recovery in the West of _Roman Law_  itself, which impact in both the ecclesial and secular law realms cannot be overstated in the history of Western Civilization and Western Law. Going one step further, Justinian's code itself was compiled largely from much earlier writings, most being from 2nd century AD Roman Jurists, most notable among them being the man named  "Gaius". What this means is that, one could, I believe, then begin to track trace and prove with some reasonable certainty a near 2000 year pattern of consistency in that notion of a minimum "age of puberty" (re sex with children) and that seemingly magic number "12" which shows up fairly consistently in all these documents. Going a step further still, one must realize that even 2nd century Roman Law-men did not "invent" these notions or "norms" out if thin air, they in turn derive from still earlier human "custom". Also noteworthy and relevant to our current discussions is the fact that along with Roman secular Civil Law we also reacquired at the same time and from the same documents the Roman notions of "Natural" Law much of which presumes the idea of timeless "unwritten" rules, codes, and laws common to all of humanity.  So finally, we should say, I think, that if their is such a thing as "Natural Law" then that puberty+sex quotient "law of nature" must rank very high up indeed within that body of right and good reckoning.

From Aristotle we got the notion of "Limit". Is there a limit and a line? Emphatically, YES, there is.


wr250


One day after declaring war on ISIS members, Anonymous has already managed to take down over 3,800 Twitter accounts linked to various ISIS members and associates.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/one-day-later-anonymous-already-takes-down-3-824-pro-isis-twitter-accounts-496258.shtml

albrecht

Quote from: wr250 on November 17, 2015, 07:37:19 PM
One day after declaring war on ISIS members, Anonymous has already managed to take down over 3,800 Twitter accounts linked to various ISIS members and associates.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/one-day-later-anonymous-already-takes-down-3-824-pro-isis-twitter-accounts-496258.shtml
I guess that is good? I was thinking they would be doing real stuff like delving into the financial networks, arm trades, movements, personal comms, etc. I guess this is impressive? Certainly for the facebook/twiitter types and virtual world. Though, I guess, it is disrupting a bit of comms and propaganda. (I think it would be more useful to keep the propaganda channels open and track people who are viewing them and visit them without a knock in the night.) At least they are doing more than their quickly abandoned campaign against the Cartels (who were beheading, burning, and torturing before ISIS was around.)

Coffeeman

Anonymous declaring war on ISIS isn't quite the 72 virgins ISiS is hoping for.

albrecht

Quote from: Coffeeman on November 17, 2015, 09:31:59 PM
Anonymous declaring war on ISIS isn't quite the 72 virgins ISiS is hoping for.
Well, maybe, they will send them some of the snapchat and etc pics they've hacked/stolen over the years?

VtaGeezer

Did I miss it, or did we get through the show and thread with no mention that it happened on Friday The 13th?

FLLFlash

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 18, 2015, 12:13:41 PM
Did I miss it, or did we get through the show and thread with no mention that it happened on Friday The 13th?

It hasn't been mentioned widely here or elsewhere that I know of, most likely due to its marginal relevance to the occurrence.

Apparently this Friday the 13th is in some way relevant to Islam: http://counterjihadreport.com/2015/11/14/the-historical-significance-of-november-13th-in-islam/ because it was the 13th of November and not because it was Friday the 13th.

VtaGeezer

Quote from: FLLFlash on November 18, 2015, 10:39:31 PM
It hasn't been mentioned widely here or elsewhere that I know of, most likely due to its marginal relevance to the occurrence.

Anywhere else, yes, but ignoring a Friday the 13th tragedy on a forum site dedicated to Art Bell's context seems bizarre in itself. Especially when the superstition had its roots in Paris with Philip IV and the Templar Knights.  The Muslim angle seems weak to me since the real event of note was the surrender on the 11th...and the fundies never thought very much of the Turks as keepers of the Calpihaphate anyway.

FLLFlash

Quote from: VtaGeezer on November 19, 2015, 06:35:51 PM
Anywhere else, yes, but ignoring a Friday the 13th tragedy on a forum site dedicated to Art Bell's context seems bizarre in itself. Especially when the superstition had its roots in Paris with Philip IV and the Templar Knights.  The Muslim angle seems weak to me since the real event of note was the surrender on the 11th...and the fundies never thought very much of the Turks as keepers of the Calpihaphate anyway.

Hoaxland's the numerologist and his number is 19.5.


Jojo

Quote from: Zenman on November 13, 2015, 11:14:53 PM
My Taoism is being tested today.
The text was written for kings and world leaders.  On a personal level, perhaps the philosophy is more flexible.  Hence the martial arts.  Would you like a workout.

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