Author Space ... Should We Continue On?  (Read 3439 times)

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Space ... Should We Continue On?
« on: July 09, 2011, 07:38:40 AM »
Space ... "the final frontier".  Should we (as a nation) continue the journey?
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=mars05

It would be interesting to hear some opinions. Consider first the next closest star system is Alpha Centauri. Planets? Don't know. Still looking. How far away is it?
It's a little over 4 light years away. If you took a regular sheet of paper. At the bottom you made a dot. At the top you drew a large circle. The distance between the dot (earth) and the large circle (sun) would represent the distance the sun is from the earth or 93 million miles. To draw Alpha Centauri on our sheet of paper it would have to be a sheet of paper over thirty miles big because that's where the dot would go to represent the next closest star system.

The venerable robotic probe Voyager I, which has traveled farther from Earth than any man-made spacecraft, is racing away at nearly 11 miles per second and has already traveled 10 billion miles. It would need on the order of 80,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri were it traveling in that direction.

I dunno. Sounds like mission impossible to me. What do you think?

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 03:29:09 PM »
You need to develop faster than light, space-warp technology, like "warp drive" for interstellar travel. Or maybe wormholes like in Stargate...  8)

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 10:07:25 PM »
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Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 10:08:58 PM »

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 10:24:34 PM »
We, are finished.



Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 10:48:16 PM »
I hope we do continue exploring space. If for no other reason then to send that little girl with the tongue far far into space.

It seems to me, we are destined to explore. Perhaps we need to learn some things at home first. But as a species we have always looked to the stars.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 06:55:12 AM »
I hope we do continue exploring space. If for no other reason then to send that little girl with the tongue far far into space.

It seems to me, we are destined to explore. Perhaps we need to learn some things at home first. But as a species we have always looked to the stars.


Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 07:18:50 AM »
"We" as in humans? Or "we" as in America?

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-moon-mars-venus-china-aims.html

America has whittled away a huge head start in space exploration and I don't think will recover from that loss. For no good reason, either.

On the other hand, as time goes on it will become increasingly viable for the private sector to make a buck on trips into space. This will provide the push for the next wave of space exploration at least in North America.


Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 07:48:55 AM »
"We" as in humans? Or "we" as in America?

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-moon-mars-venus-china-aims.html

America has whittled away a huge head start in space exploration and I don't think will recover from that loss. For no good reason, either.

On the other hand, as time goes on it will become increasingly viable for the private sector to make a buck on trips into space. This will provide the push for the next wave of space exploration at least in North America.

We as in humans. But, hmmm, if we wait for all of the world to be on equal footing our sun will run out of hydrogen first.

Perhaps the private sector will help "propel" us into space. I have my doubts. I do not see any practical measure of exploiting resources from the far reaches of space. A freighter large enough to carry resources from another solar system would have to tow the entire planet back to earth to make it economically viable. I don't see that... then again, as a kid I thought flat screen tv's were impossible.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 12:17:40 PM »
I recall Art's visit to Bob Bigalow's aerospace center where he (Mr. Bigalow) was personally financing his own space program. Having launched his own rocket sucessfully and there are other private companies doing the same. For now only the Russians will be going into space regularly, but China is not far behind. Clearly the United States will have to keep some space program going just to keep a presence up there. It's too bad there just doesn't seem to be any more planets like earth within a reasonable distance. We really need to take more care of Mother Earth. Looks like that's all we've got.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 01:06:23 PM »
"We" as in humans? Or "we" as in America?

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-moon-mars-venus-china-aims.html

America has whittled away a huge head start in space exploration and I don't think will recover from that loss. For no good reason, either.

On the other hand, as time goes on it will become increasingly viable for the private sector to make a buck on trips into space. This will provide the push for the next wave of space exploration at least in North America.


I recently heard a commentator suggest that NASA took a wrong turn when it put our focus on low-Earth orbit quasi-business ventures.  I agree.

We largely abandoned the simple spirit of "space exploration" and assumed the role of providing an 18 wheeler to space (i.e., the Space Shuttle for all you Noory listeners reading this).

Perhaps other countries will evolve this way as well, but I'm afraid the Chinese or Indian flags will be casting shadows across the Martian landscape without Old Glory (i.e., the American Flag, for all you Noory listeners reading this).

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 10:49:16 PM »
I do not see any practical measure of exploiting resources from the far reaches of space. A freighter large enough to carry resources from another solar system would have to tow the entire planet back to earth to make it economically viable. I don't see that...

There's useful stuff a lot closer to home that's accessible in the relatively short term that wouldn't require such extreme engineering. The lunar surface has both water and an abundance of helium-3 which is in principle useful for fusion reactions. Furthermore the moon and asteroid belt provide more raw materials than you could shake a stick at and could allow off-planet mining quite easily. No need to tow planets around. Combined with the fact that the space race generated an incredible amount of breakthroughs in technology and materials science I would assume this may be enough of a carrot to dangle in front of any manufacturing power to encourage the exploration of near space.

Possibly more useful than any bodies near us are the materials on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn which would serve as excellent way stations to further locales. Europa and Callisto are thought to be sheathed in liquid water oceans and on Titan it literally rains useful complex hydrocarbons from the skies.

I imagine that the ultimate push of a technologically advanced spacefaring civilization interested in colonizing the solar system would have a long term goal in the Oort cloud. All you'd need for a cheap terraforming solution would be to basically push around the icy pieces of debris out there toward planets in the solar system (if you don't like the idea of orbital bombardment of comet bits by gravity then attach essentially big rocket engines capable of providing just a tiny amount of acceleration) and push (steer) them toward a potentially nice place to live, like mars. Once you've bombarded your target with enough ice and water on the surface atmospheric pressure could rise and over a long time terraforming becomes a possibility.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 04:18:22 AM »
There's useful stuff a lot closer to home that's accessible in the relatively short term that wouldn't require such extreme engineering.

I thought there was some treaty in place that all activities on (actually all heavenly bodies) the planets and their moons. That to use the minerals on the Moon would have to be sanctioned by all or at least a majority of the countries on Earth.

Maybe it is a junk treaty. I dunno. Either way I can't wait for China to inform the world they are gonna mine the Moon. We in the US will first shit a brick. I can't wait to hear Bart Sibrel explain the quackery of that one. Then we will declare some type of bureaucratic warfare escalating to who knows what.

Seriously though, How much mass would have to be mined before we affected the moon's orbit? Or is that the most stupid question I have ever asked?

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 07:31:30 AM »
I thought there was some treaty in place that all activities on (actually all heavenly bodies) the planets and their moons. That to use the minerals on the Moon would have to be sanctioned by all or at least a majority of the countries on Earth.


There is an "Outer Space Treaty" (not the formal name) of 1967 and as of 2008 less than 100 countries have signed onto. Basically it prohibits Nukes in space, setting up any military type bases and stops countries "claiming" real estate for their own. Any ventures should also benefit all of mankind. Hope it holds up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 08:16:10 AM »
There is an "Outer Space Treaty" (not the formal name) of 1967 and as of 2008 less than 100 countries have signed onto. Basically it prohibits Nukes in space, setting up any military type bases and stops countries "claiming" real estate for their own. Any ventures should also benefit all of mankind. Hope it holds up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty


There is another sort of an addendum to the one you quote. Upon further looking it seems only 13 governments signed on. So probably not worth the paper it is written on.  But it deals with lots of stuff including:

Quote

Bans altering the environment of celestial bodies and requires that states must take measures to prevent accidental contamination.

Bans any state from claiming sovereignty over any territory of celestial bodies.

Bans any ownership of any extraterrestrial property by any organization or person, unless that organization is international and governmental.

Requires all resource extraction and allocation be made by an international regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Treaty

It was 1979 and ratified in 1984.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 08:43:17 AM »

There is another sort of an addendum to the one you quote. Upon further looking it seems only 13 governments signed on. So probably not worth the paper it is written on.  But it deals with lots of stuff including:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Treaty

It was 1979 and ratified in 1984.

Thanks, glad to see it's been updated. Now if we can come up with something as cool as we had. Hope it's not the end of an era but a new beginning.


Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 11:26:49 AM »
Yeah, we gotta strip mine the moon.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »
I thought there was some treaty in place that all activities on (actually all heavenly bodies) the planets and their moons. That to use the minerals on the Moon would have to be sanctioned by all or at least a majority of the countries on Earth.
Hmm... I'm not sure. I've never heard of that before.

Seriously though, How much mass would have to be mined before we affected the moon's orbit? Or is that the most stupid question I have ever asked?
I don't really think it's is possible in practical terms, but it would be an easy calculation.

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 06:02:43 AM »
Quote

...

Possibly more useful than any bodies near us are the materials on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn which would serve as excellent way stations to further locales. Europa and Callisto are thought to be sheathed in liquid water oceans and on Titan it literally rains useful complex hydrocarbons from the skies.

...


Quote
http://www.inquisitr.com/3710152/forget-mars-trump-wants-nasa-to-visit-jupiters-moon-europa-and-explore-the-solar-system/

“I will free NASA from the restriction of serving primarily as a logistics agency for low Earth orbit activity… Instead we will refocus its mission on space exploration.”

Then, shortly before Election Day, the new president-elect recruited former Republican congressman Robert Walker, who chaired the Science, Space, and Technology Committee in the 1990s, to help draft a plan for NASA.

Trump’s new space policy, heavily influenced by Walker, is designed to coordinate public and private efforts to maximize American efforts to explore the entire solar system. That includes mining valuable minerals from the asteroid belt and visiting Jupiter’s moon Europa, perhaps the best place to find alien life near Earth.

Trump plans to bring back the National Space Council, last in operation under George H.W. Bush, explore deep space, and encourage commercial partners to build a new economy in low Earth orbit, Walker told Mother Jones.
That's my Pussy Grabbing President. This is good news.  ;D
Yes, please totally forget Mars !!!!

And, I'd really rather have China fund and explore deep space.

I guess though, this is all just cover for the Militarization of Outer Space. "We gotta do it before they do it." But, I'd rather spend a Trillion on infrastructure.


Who wants to play "Connect The Dots"...           ;D

Dot-1:  http://spacenews.com/38844lockheed-martin-raytheon-get-space-fence-bridge-contracts/

Dot-2:  http://www.mining.com/obama-boosts-asteroid-mining-signs-law-granting-rights-to-own-space-riches/

Dot-3:  http://inewstoday.net/2017/01/lockheed-martin-to-build-solar-system-probe-for-trojan/

Please take note of the dates of those articles.    ;)




Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 11:01:45 PM »
Yes we should continue on.  The tanks that will fuel the new Exploration launcher have been welded up, the 4 first core stage engines have been selected, work has started on the 2 new longer 5 segment Soilid Rocket Engines and the actual crew capsule construction is well underway.  First launch was to be in late 2018, but that has slipped into 2019 now.  Exploration Mission (EM1) will circle the Moon and return home without crew as a test, then EM2 will carry humans beyond Low Earth Orbit for the first time since the 70's in early the early 2020's.

NASA has enough RS-25 engines for 16 missions (4 engines per core stage), unlike when used with the Shuttle, these engines will not be reused, they will fall into the ocean.  The RS-25D's which were used on Shuttle were very expensive $50-$70 million a pop, but it was the reuseability which drove up the cost.  The newer RS-25E's will be designed for single use from the onset, and will be much less expensive.

At the end of this year, we will finally see NASA/USA have the capability to send our astronauts up to our space station, rather than pay the Russians $70 million a seat.  Space X's Dragon 2 riding on its Falcon rocket and Boeings CST-100 Starliner riding on ULA's Atlas 5 rocket  will provide redundant access to ISS and safe haven for emergency escapes from ISS.  NASA and the United States lost the capability to launch people into space when the STS/Space Shuttle Program ended in July 2011. 7 years without that capability when you have a $100,000,000,000 space station orbitting the Earth.
These 2 new American spaceflight systems will allow more astronauts to do science on ISS.  Instead of 1 or 2 astros on each Russian Soyuz craft, there can be 4 American with their own craft.   ISS will be in operation until at least 2024.

peace
Hog

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 11:04:21 PM »
How did you prove that research into anti-gravitic technology is a waste of resources? Include diagrams.

Re:[ Space ...Continue On?...
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2017, 01:28:39 AM »
Yes we should continue on.  The tanks that will fuel the new Exploration launcher have been welded up, the 4 first core stage engines have been selected, work has started on the 2 new longer 5 segment Soilid Rocket Engines and the actual crew capsule construction is well underway.  First launch was to be in late 2018, but that has slipped into 2019 now.  Exploration Mission (EM1) will circle the Moon and return home without crew as a test, then EM2 will carry humans beyond Low Earth Orbit for the first time since the 70's in early the early 2020's.

NASA has enough RS-25 engines for 16 missions (4 engines per core stage), unlike when used with the Shuttle, these engines will not be reused, they will fall into the ocean.  The RS-25D's which were used on Shuttle were very expensive $50-$70 million a pop, but it was the reuseability which drove up the cost.  The newer RS-25E's will be designed for single use from the onset, and will be much less expensive.

At the end of this year, we will finally see NASA/USA have the capability to send our astronauts up to our space station, rather than pay the Russians $70 million a seat.  Space X's Dragon 2 riding on its Falcon rocket and Boeings CST-100 Starliner riding on ULA's Atlas 5 rocket  will provide redundant access to ISS and safe haven for emergency escapes from ISS.  NASA and the United States lost the capability to launch people into space when the STS/Space Shuttle Program ended in July 2011. 7 years without that capability when you have a $100,000,000,000 space station orbitting the Earth.
These 2 new American spaceflight systems will allow more astronauts to do science on ISS.  Instead of 1 or 2 astros on each Russian Soyuz craft, there can be 4 American with their own craft.   ISS will be in operation until at least 2024.

peace
Hog
====================================================
'Allo!
With you am i yet.
Perforce.
Still haveing on-line browseing problems.
Many web sites i use are dissapeared by finance or black-holed.
My messages captive mail dead for years on this forum.
Couldn't i resist this topic.
Not an fan of NASA.
Personal research,includeing local yokel 'Boreing'aerospace suggesting.
Found i an copy recycled boreing pad manual for Saturn V.
useless generalities convinced i that moon buggy,boosters,et.al all just Kubrick studio effects to hide real collaborations by many sovreign states in space all obvuscated by Mass Media.
Current space plans might be yust another puppet show.
Thus what trotted out by space moguls & nasa is fifty to 100 years obsolete.
The real black hole is unified space black budget,start with Ferrel's books about paperclip,VonBraun,Disney,Look at Soviet's Zond-V,sent frogs in-to lunar loop & back to re-entry,maybe only radiations studies of organisms beyond Van Allen Belts.
Look at site,"AULIS".
It's all Kubrick.
"B_B"
PS:No Logo:
"[7VF]"

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2017, 06:40:30 AM »
Wait.  I thought Trojan was for the probe? ???
;)     ;D

Re:[ Space ...Continue On?...
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2017, 06:47:33 AM »
====================================================
'Allo!
With you am i yet.
Perforce.
Still haveing on-line browseing problems.
Many web sites i use are dissapeared by finance or black-holed.
My messages captive mail dead for years on this forum.
Couldn't i resist this topic.
Not an fan of NASA.
Personal research,includeing local yokel 'Boreing'aerospace suggesting.
Found i an copy recycled boreing pad manual for Saturn V.
useless generalities convinced i that moon buggy,boosters,et.al all just Kubrick studio effects to hide real collaborations by many sovreign states in space all obvuscated by Mass Media.
Current space plans might be yust another puppet show.
Thus what trotted out by space moguls & nasa is fifty to 100 years obsolete.
The real black hole is unified space black budget,start with Ferrel's books about paperclip,VonBraun,Disney,Look at Soviet's Zond-V,sent frogs in-to lunar loop & back to re-entry,maybe only radiations studies of organisms beyond Van Allen Belts.
Look at site,"AULIS".
It's all Kubrick.
"B_B"
PS:No Logo:
"[7VF]"
Happy New Year B_B.  :)
Good to see you back.



Check out how the Russkies want to resupply the ISS. 
https://sputniknews.com/russia/201701091049399104-russia-railgun-tests/

Edit: 19.5 Lulz on the site. Excellent !

Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2017, 02:04:03 AM »
Wtf the only space projects we hear about these days involving actual humans are friggin horny space-tourists paying private companies crazy money to frolic in near-earth orbit. 

It is said that during the Dark Ages only like 5% of people ever traveled farther than ten miles from their home in their lifetimes.  One day our future descendants will speak with similar sympathy towards us.  We cannot continue on with this provincial mindset.  We must take a few more tentative steps into the beyond.

I'm all for robotic probes, given their cost efficiency and expendability.  However, I think Michio Kaku describes solar system colonization as a kind of insurance policy;  that we need to be, at minimum, a two-planet civilization.  Hello, asteroids!  Hello, environmental collapse!  Hello, some idiot with nukes and a desire to bring on the 'End Days'! 


Re: Space ... Should We Continue On?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2017, 02:12:03 AM »
In my mind that the same as asking Do you want our species to continue? If you answer that affirmatively then that's going to involve not depending on the perpetuity of a rock floating in space around a sun (upon which we're dependent for all life) that will go supernova one day. Therefore, space. So, my answer is yes!  :)